rolling retirees: 2018 and beyond

They're also both comparable to Kirby Puckett--not positionally, obviously, but in other ways: abbreviated career, very popular (before the world knew about the awful things Puckett was doing...I remember Munson being kind of a lovable grump), key position on more than one World Series winner, team leader. Puckett also almost won a ROY (3rd) and almost won an MVP (2nd). Puckett's career bWAR was a little better than the other two (51.2), but his HOF case was also the subject of some debate. Puckett got in first try, Munson drew less than 10%. Not sure why.

Bill James answered an e-mail about Posey today: "I thought Mauer was an obvious Hall of Famer. I don't know that I ever really studied it; I just thought it was obvious. Molina, in my mind, crossed the Hall of Fame threshold this season, 2021; I thought it was debatable whether he was a Hall of Famer or not until this season, but I thought that this season settled the issue.

Posey I think is in the gray area, and I guess I will need to think about it for a year or so before I reach any clear opinion about it, or maybe I never will. He's not an obvious Hall of Famer. And Munson I don't think is a legitimate Hall of Fame candidate, and I don't believe he has any business being in the Hall of Fame discussion."

Typically perverse.

(xpost) Very true. It's probably as simple as that.

There was also, I think, if you look at Munson's last two seasons, the perception that decline was underway.

In 2019, the Modern Era committee didn't come close to voting Munson in, although he *was* on the (bottom of the) list of ten guys they considered. But I think that shows it's not just about the preferences of 1980s voters.

I'm back to not getting it, then. Sabremetrically, he does well (5.2 bWAR/162 games), and at the time, he was admired and famous (ranked higher among catchers than Fisk and Simmons, I think--after Bench--though maybe I'm not remembering that right).

For what it's worth: Munson started the AS game in '74/75/76, Fisk started in '73/77/78. So I guess they were perceived--at least among the fans who voted--as equals.

It's wild to look at the damage Fisk did as an old guy. And he was still playing 100 games at catcher at age 43.

James got some follow-up on his Munson dismissal today. I know I've posted about this a few times already...The e-mail is polite and carefully laid out, even pointing out that James himself once ranked Munson as the 7th greatest catcher ever in peak value. James's response kind of amazes me.

Of Munson, you say: "I don' t think he is a legitimate Hall of Fame candidate, and I don't believe he has any business being in the Hall of Fame discussion." I'm a bit baffled by this (and no, I'm not, and have never been, a Yankee fan). Looking objectively, he's 15th among C's in WAR, 12th in Jay Jaffe's JAWS system (which is focused on HOF worthiness). 200+ win shares in a career tragically cut short. A ROY, an MVP, 7 time All Star, got MVP votes in 7 seasons. Hit .357 in 30 playoff games. Was the Captain of a legendary team. In your historical Abstract you have him 7th in peak value as of that time.

Given the above, maybe not a HOF'er but not even "in the discussion" seems very harsh. Can you elaborate? If not, I'm just curious, do you make any allowances for the career cut short by a plane crash or do you think that's not relevant?
Asked by: Steve

Answered: 11/6/2021
No disrespect, but I don't think I am obligated to use the same value systems that other people use.

James' career value is dropping like a rock.

Stupid reader, why would anyone think win shares are a value system Bill James would use? I mean, sure, James invented them and framed the Abstract entirely around them...

No QO to Kershaw. Is he hanging em up?$

Yet more Posey-Munson stuff from David Schoenfield (who also compares Posey to Puckett):

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/32545582/where-buster-posey-stands-all-great-catchers

How bad is Kershaw's health? (I guess not making a qualifying offer maybe answers that.) Have to believe someone will take a chance on him. If that is it, the Koufax parallels never end...

the reddit brain trust seemed to think there's decent odds of him having a multi-year deal soon – but i dunno why you wouldn't still offer up a QO.

Because the org knows he doesnt want to leave

I think Dave Fleming dug up an even better point of comparison for Posey than Munson: Mickey Cochrane.

https://www.billjamesonline.com/the_ballad_of_buster_posey/

Really enjoyed that, thanks for sharing

*not* qualifying kershaw did him a favor, i suspect (other than that it's vaguely insulting)

-if healthy, he *might* be worth $18.4M for one year on the free agent market, but it's questionable, as is his arm
-could be wrong, but i doubt he needs the money
-so i assume he wants years
-had he been qualified, other teams would have had to give up a top draft pick to sign an aging unhealthy pitcher
-now he can sign a lengthier, lower-per-year deal with anyone, with no penalties
-if he really wants to stay with the dodgers, he -- unlike, say, greinke -- will totally take a lesser offer as long as it has the years

otoh god only knows what free agent compensation will be like after rob manfred destroys baseball

Joakim Soria

for some reason i have always thought Soria was 35 and on the brink of retirement. since like 2010. i have no idea why. but he's 37 now, and now retired.

dude had a hell of a career for a reliever.

https://theathletic.com/news/royals-reliever-wade-davis-retires-leaves-as-world-series-champ-and-3-time-all-star/C50bQGC2cmTc/

Dominant in 2014-15: 139.1 IP, 0.97 ERA, 71 hits, 7.3 bWAR.

i wonder what his career would have been like if he'd been used as a reliever from the get-go.

Mysterious Fish, the greatest Japanese baseball mascot of all-time, just announced his retirement. RIP to a legend. cc: @mondomascots https://t.co/zkMRgWcoW5 pic.twitter.com/l0bVn8jAFx

— Eric Casey (@EricCasey) December 5, 2021

andrew romine, who put up 0.6 bWAR over parts of 11 seasons

That’s a type of accomplishment I guess.

as mark twain wrote, you have to be kind of good to suck badly that bad for that long

on the bright side, he's the best player in his family. brother austin is at -0.5 over parts of 10 seasons and their dad kevin was -1.4 over parts of seven

i wonder if they like to talk WAR around the kitchen table during the holidays

kyle seager, age 34

wow, what? wasn't expecting that.

three-time detroit tiger cameron maybin

jon lester

melky cabrera

Travis Snider, who last played in MLB in 2015.

top-10 prospect in 2008-9; career bWAR of 4.3. solid season with the pirates in 2014 tho!

The guy was an absolute beast in the minor. Vlad-like stats and then totally crumbled in the majors. Probably the biggest bust in jays history?

People sometimes ask me.. What is it like to play "Pro Baseball"?

Retirement has brought up a lot of different emotions and memories for me. It's given space to think.

16 seasons in professional baseball. Here is a thread on where it has taken me..

— Travis Snider (@Lunchboxhero45) January 15, 2022

I have felt on top of the world. I have felt all alone.

This fucking sport, amirite?

francisco liriano, 38

at three years and $39m, he was the recipient of what is still the pittsburgh pirates’ largest-ever free agent deal; a year and a half into it they had to give the blue jays two prospects just to take him off their hands

One of those prospects, Reese McGuire, was pretty great his first two seasons/150 AB; nothing since, although still with the Jays.

and better known for something else

Parking lot? I'd forgotten!

Longtime big-league first baseman Adrián González, who played for the Rangers, Padres, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Mets across 15 MLB seasons, officially announced his retirement today on his personal Instagram.

Gonzalez last played in the majors in 2018, but he was active as recently as this past season, playing 43 games with the Mexican League’s Mariachis de Guadalajara and posting a .340/.412/.531 batting line in 187 trips to the plate. He also represented Mexico in the 2020 Summer Olympics in Tokyo (held in 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic), where he collected three hits and a walk in 12 plate appearances.

ryan zimmerman

dude had himself a career. all time Nationals leader in at bats, Runs, RBIs, Hits, doubles, home runs, total bases, xbh and GIDP!

interesting list

All-time walk-off HR:
13 - Jim Thome
12 - Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, Frank Robinson, Babe Ruth
11 – David Ortiz, Tony Perez, Ryan Zimmerman

That's 10 Hall of Famers, plus Zim. And if his shoulder troubles of 2012-14 don't force him to move to 1B ...

— Mark Zuckerman (@MarkZuckerman) February 15, 2022

...he still wouldn't have been a hall of famer

haha, yeah. plus there are quite a few players who might have been hall of famers if it wasn't for those few years and that one injury that derailed the career...

zimmerman was good, though, and it is an interesting list.

dwight gooden stands out. even WITH all of his troubles he has a case for HOF

as an aside, i think players that were suspended for recreational drug use should get bonus points for the hall of fame. that's like playing on Nightmare difficulty in doom