Trans Politics, Trans Activism, also 'rolling is this transphobic?' thread

I don't think saying "people who don't want to have sex with people of certain ethnicities are racist" puts the same kind of pressure on those people, because people who don't want to have sex with people of certain ethnicities probably don't care if other people think they're racist. Or, if they do, it's fair to put that pressure on them, because it's likely that they are motivated by racism. Whereas not wanting to have sex with people with penises is likely due to...not being sexually attracted to people with penises. And it's wrong to intentionally make someone feel bad about that.

You're creating an artificial divide here where ethnicity is something you choose to be attracted to or not, while genitalia is just something you either are or are not. In fact both those preferences are molded by societal standards, from a very young age and to an extent that it's quite difficult to grasp for any "pure" attraction that could predate this. Considering how societies sexualize certain ethnicities and make others seem sexually threatening or unattractive, it's pretty safe to say that not every person who has preferences in this department "wouldn't care" what ppl thought of that or is even bigoted.

I think (to echo Nicole here) that it's important for all of us to reflect on how our preferences have been shaped this way. At the end of the day, your preferences are your preferences, and no one has to fuck anyone they don't want to. But ppl who go around making a giant noise out of how they are not attracted to group x or y are being at best insensitive and at worst pretty clearly bigoted, whether that's regarding race or the cis-trans spectrum.

(cis-trans spectrum a bad choice of words there; obv loudly proclaiming you're not attracted to cis ppl doesn't carry the same baggage, much as saying the same regarding white ppl doesn't in most parts of the globe)

You're creating an artificial divide here where ethnicity is something you choose to be attracted to or not, while genitalia is just something you either are or are not. In fact both those preferences are molded by societal standards, from a very young age and to an extent that it's quite difficult to grasp for any "pure" attraction that could predate this.

To be honest, I’m not totally sure I grasp what you’re saying here, and I’m not entirely sure if I made myself clear in the post you’re responding to. I’m not saying everyone who isn’t attracted to certain ethnicities has explicitly chosen not to be attracted to those ethnicities. But I am saying that if you realize you are not attracted to certain ethnicities, and you hear people saying people who aren’t attracted to certain ethnicities are bigoted, and this bothers you because you don’t think of yourself as bigoted, you can choose to reflect on how societal standards have shaped your preference (e.g. by making other ethnicities seem threatening), and generally this will result in the preference changing.

I think you would agree with all of that. However, you can’t equate preferences for ethnicities with preferences for genitalia just because both are influenced to some extent by societal standards. There is an actual distinction between the two, because in the case of genital preference we don’t know if the same reflection process generally results in the preference changing. While some people can change their preference, a lot of people feel very strongly that they can’t change their preference, and there’s no reason not to believe them. So putting pressure on them to change has the power to do harm. And saying genital preferences are transphobic does put pressure on lesbians to change.

it's important for all of us to reflect on how our preferences have been shaped this way

I think it's fine to say this, but this isn't what people in the BBC article were reacting to. Again, the problem is that other people are saying something different, which is that genital preferences ARE transphobic. It sounds like you don't agree that genital preferences are transphobic, but when lesbians react negatively to people telling them genital preferences are transphobic, you're saying they should keep it to themselves.

- The survey the BBC article was based on was conducted by a specifically transphobic organisation and answered by a self-selecting sample of transphobes. These are the people you are aligning yourself with.

- Conflating "social pressure to not be a bigot" with "individual pressure to sleep with someone" is textbook moral panic and completely vile.

- Why are you assuming all trans women have penises?? I know transphobes are completely obsessed with genitalia but this is very strange.

Also I feel like I should say that as a moderator I am absolutely going to ban transphobes from the board whether they get 51 FPs or not. I haven't run this by any other mods, but honestly I'd rather get stripped of my privs and yelled at by every single member of the board than let it stand.

not yelling, cheering

It is often tougher than you would think to know where someone is on the spectrum from "just asking questions", through recycling GC talking points, to outright hate. VTC is dancing just on the side where I'm furious but don't feel like action is reasonable. But I'm putting it out there that I'm not going to tolerate a whole lot of bullshit on this matter.

hear, hear

I am not sure why people think they have the right to tell other people what they should or shouldn't be attracted to, and to tell them their natural attraction is immoral (which is what they are doing, since transphobia is immoral) and/or due to a set of social conventions (which seems no different to me than saying being gay is a choice; one can choose different social conventions). I will say, as a gay man who spends a lot of time in an extremely conservative Middle Eastern country, that the arguments I am hearing from certain trans people are not very different from the one's I hear from conservative religious people who also have a problem with my genital preference.

Luckily, the trans people in my life just want to live their lives and aren't interested in telling people what to be attracted to.

no one is saying the preferences have to change upon reflection. it's fine if some cis person is ultimately sexually incompatible with a trans person they had been attracted to, even after reflection. what trans people do object to is how any suggestion that people reflect at all on how societal transphobia has shaped people's preferences, or a trans woman calling herself a lesbian, or even just "trans women are women" is then equated with sexual coercion. no one's position is "cis people have to have sex with trans people they aren't attracted to out of some ridiculous guilt", but transphobes love to twist things to present it that way in order to attack trans people.

there surely are some trans people who do indeed have extreme unnuanced 'if you have any genital preferences you are transphobic' positions but that's very much a minority position, not at all reasonable, and no one here is arguing for it, and even then it isn't the same as the transphobe's straw man of "cis people have to have sex with trans people". the bbc article is extremely bad faith & i do not trust it to be representative of anyone.

ultimately 'genital preference' discourse is just a bad faith cudgel wielded by transphobes & i don't think it's at all a useful lens to approach the issue of sexual biases against trans people.

people raising the issue of 'genital preferences' are largely either transphobes trying to suggest that trans people are coercing cis people into unwanted sex, or trans people very very clumsily attempting to express the 'preferences are shaped by society' thing (and they should be discouraged from doing so for how obviously clumsy it is!), but it's much much more often the former.

I don't disagree with you, but I think the "genital preference is transphobic" argument of the last few posts has been in response to someone upthread mentioning such takes on Twitter and TikTok where of course you do get a lot of un-nuanced takes. (Also the argument that it is transphobic to have a genital preference falls to pieces when one simply inverts the stating of the preference: instead of saying what you do prefer, you say what you don't. I don't like vaginas, whether on a man or a woman.)

And I do think that gays and lesbians are especially sensitive to these un-nuanced takes because we have had our sexualities (sometimes literally) policed our whole lives, and this just seems like another attack and from a corner where one would not expect it.

There is an actual distinction between the two, because in the case of genital preference we don’t know if the same reflection process generally results in the preference changing.

This is true of all other preferences too! Ethnicity, body shape, whatever.

It sounds like you don't agree that genital preferences are transphobic, but when lesbians react negatively to people telling them genital preferences are transphobic, you're saying they should keep it to themselves.

Consider transphobia as a societal force that impacts us all to some degree or other, as opposed to "specific bigotry from bad bad people", and I think you might start to understand what ppl are saying in the examples you cited?

Why are you assuming all trans women have penises?? I know transphobes are completely obsessed with genitalia but this is very strange.

fwiw emily that's OTM and I'm sorry for engaging w/ the debate without pushing back against that notion.

"as a gay man" my eyes nearly fell out of my head at the mention of the phrase 'genital preference' and "as a gay man" I'm familiar with gays posting 'no Asians, sorry just a preference' on their Grindr profiles and "as a gay man" I'm quite familiar that desire is always already complexly political and whenever it's presented otherwise there's always somebody on the receiving end of something and, well, look what's going on...!

Familiar* with what ? The fact? The reality? The concept? The notion? The history? I guess there's a reason my mind passed over it.

nicole at 8:08 27 Oct 21
practice! I’ve had a few people change pronouns in my life and just taking ten minutes a day to repeat to yrself a short script like “Their name is x. Their pronouns are they/them. They like x and it’s fun to hang out with them” or w/e works pretty well ime, and it doesn’t seem to occur to a lot of ppl

This is really sad and enraging.

got told to leave a women’s toilet last night (again) which was personally distressing obviously, but also like. could this country please pull it together ?!

— michael wave: gourd boy edition (@SzMarsupial) October 30, 2021

“as a gay man" my eyes nearly fell out of my head at the mention of the phrase 'genital preference' and "as a gay man" I'm familiar with gays posting 'no Asians, sorry just a preference' on their Grindr profiles and "as a gay man" I'm quite familiar that desire is always already complexly political and whenever it's presented otherwise there's always somebody on the receiving end of something and, well, look what's going on...!

― plax (ico), Sunday, October 31, 2021 9:57 AM

I don’t really understand your post, but the parallel between racial preferences doesn’t make sense. If one writes “no [x race]” that is racist because a person is of a certain race by... being part of that race. But genital preferences don’t work like that, unless you define gender by genitals, in which case you’re the transphobe. So since vaginas belong to no gender specifically, you can’t say preference for or against them is transphobic, since trans, cis, and non-binary people can all have vaginas.

if a hunky trans man were into me i'd definitely do them. that is all.

"genital preferences" are really fucking idiotic the more you think about it. but i don't think this new poster is really interested in doing that (thinking).

The more I thought about it the more I realized saying it is transphobic makes no sense. You however have not made any argument. But again please explain to me how saying "I don't like x" when x can belong to trans, cis, and NB people is transphobic. If you mean saying that "I don't like men who have x" is transphobic, that is not a genital preference. That is a genital preference plus a gender preference. But gender preferences aren't transphobic either since trans people can be any gender.

i really appreciate the posters in this thread who are not showing their ass

oh so now it's ok to have ass preferences

lmao

Lol harbl

It needs not be something as charged as trans-sexuality, but anytime you make a big thing out of sexually excluding a physical part of a person, well you are just being rude, no matter what it is. Everyone can have preferences, very few people care about them.

And woman get chastised by those same dudes for sometimes having a preference for tall men.

Anyway we can banhammer these new users who seem to just be here to be transphobes?

dating while trans can be a gauntlet of managing different kinds of transphobia; i feel grateful to the few ppl who have been attracted to me without making me feel weird about their attraction. that's about as far as i care to have an opinion on the matter which is otherwise really dense and confusing to me

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Friday, October 29, 2021 12:45 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

reading this back, the degree to which the talking points being advocated itt by kafka_keba and VTC made me commit weird internalized transphobia on myself makes me think they're not advocating them in good faith ha ha

yah i mean idk if legitmate concerns CAPTCHA and co are sockpuppets but i could do without their poisonous sophistry either way

CAPTCHA has been posting since 2008 and mostly stayed under the radar until....this performance of theirs.

the long game

ok well the other guy literally has one post about borges wife from a couple days before arriving to offer us his 'insights' into 'genital preference'

Actually I had an account a long time ago circa when Momus used to post here and then just read the forums and then decided to get a new account. Anyway no one has actually told me why what I said was incorrect and frankly I don't think my comments are any more rude than other people's comments telling me that my natural desires are some sort of phobia.

Speaking of transphobes...

"In my defense, I used to post here when [*just picking person at random here*] the guy who famously bullied Wendy Carlos with a transphobic song did"

Ha I knew someone was going to say something like that but it was the only well-known person I could think of from that time period.

i dont know who momus is and never heard him mentioned in the time i've posted here which is way too long. but as edifying as it would be to have some cis ppl debating what is and isn't transphobic, i think you might do well to reflect that your 'arguments' have been recognised instantly by everyone else on the thread as talking points from transphobia internet (in any case, ones rebutted before you even posted by nicole) and nobody is particularly interested in being drawn into your "i dont even see gender! who's the *real* transphobe?!" nonsense, random interloper with barely developed backstory. Please do better at mangling yr bullshit into something less instantly identifiable as the same old.

I hear you, Brad, so I'm including a content warning here: continued discussion related to the BBC article follows.

These are the people you are aligning yourself with.

I can't help who does and doesn't agree with me. People with many different viewpoints feel the same way I do. If Donald Trump says the world is round, should we all say it's flat?

Conflating "social pressure to not be a bigot" with "individual pressure to sleep with someone" is textbook moral panic and completely vile.

In this case, what is being described as bigotry is not being sexually attracted to certain people, which does put pressure on individuals to sleep with people they aren't attracted to to prove (to themselves and to the community they're a part of) they aren't bigots.

Why are you assuming all trans women have penises??

I'm not assuming that at all, but most do, and we're talking about sexual preferences for certain genitalia here.

no one is saying the preferences have to change upon reflection.

Yes they are; people are saying the preferences have to change if the person doesn't want to be transphobic and be accused of transphobia.

there surely are some trans people who do indeed have extreme unnuanced 'if you have any genital preferences you are transphobic' positions but that's very much a minority position, not at all reasonable, and no one here is arguing for it

It's a minority position, but that doesn't mean it isn't significant and that many people don't hold it and express it, including prominent people within the LGBT community. Which is to say that it does still have the power to do harm.

Meanwhile, how many prominent people in the LGBT community are doing anything to counteract its effects, e.g. saying explicitly that genital preferences AREN'T transphobic? Even in this discussion, you're the only person who's come out and said that people who hold these positions are being unreasonable. In the Feminist Theory thread, everybody was instructed to FP the person who said these people are irrational and wrong. I remember seeing this and thinking it was bad, but I didn't speak up then.

I've repeatedly noted that no one here is arguing for it, and that it's something other people are doing, elsewhere. That said, in the time since you posted, map has said "'genital preferences' are really fucking idiotic," which, of course, isn't the same as saying they're transphobic, but it is derogatory of something certain people have no control over, and honestly it feels like bullying behavior when it's being said to a gay man who has just said that he has a genital preference. And yet no one else here has called it out as such.

This is true of all other preferences too! Ethnicity, body shape, whatever.

As I said, it isn't true of preference for/against certain ethnicities. Research has shown that this preference corresponds with a person's broader racism. So it follows that to the extent that racism can be unlearned, such sexual preferences can be changed. As far as I know, there isn't any research that has had any similar implications for preferences for/against certain genitals.

Consider transphobia as a societal force that impacts us all to some degree or other, as opposed to "specific bigotry from bad bad people", and I think you might start to understand what ppl are saying in the examples you cited?

It sounds like you're arguing that a certain level of transphobia is acceptable (in the sense that it can't be changed, which must be accepted), and that this is what people who say genital preferences are transphobic think. Do you have any evidence to back that up? I think most people who accuse people of transphobia do think of it as something done by bad people. In any case, you have to know that when people with genital preferences hear people say "genital preferences are transphobic," they aren't going to interpret it as "genital preferences are transphobic, but if there's nothing you can do about them, I'm not negatively judging you." They're going to assume you're calling them bad people, because you're saying they are constantly engaging in transphobia, simply by having those preferences.

Side note: I've been on ILX a long time -- since before 2008, actually, because I lurked for a while before I ever posted anything. I don't post a lot, and when I do it's mainly on ILM, but I love ILX and I think it's full of really smart, good-hearted people. My views typically line up with those of most people here, but this is one area where we disagree.

If Donald Trump says the world is round, should we all say it's flat?

oh trust me, his view on that is much more *nuanced*

xp whining/handwringing/concern-trolling about the punching-up (and any associated collateral damage) while claiming you aren't part of the punching-down is an extremely bad look FYI

"oh my god some straights might get their feelings hurt, these trans maniacs have really gone too far" RMDE

oh and let's not forget the hurt feelings of the mysterious gay poster who appeared yesterday

it's going to be so obvious in 20 years to everyone what the right side of this argument was, the problem is that it's hurting people right now

― Tracer Hand

It sounds like you're arguing that a certain level of transphobia is acceptable (in the sense that it can't be changed, which must be accepted)

vtc this is an extremely bad faith reading of what Daniel wrote

if someone calls something is a societal force that means they believe it's 'acceptable'? really this is just insultingly dim sophistry

when map said "'genital preferences' are really idiotic" i would be extremely surprised to learn that they meant anything apart from this discourse around them is idiotic. certainly your interpretation is bizarre - do you really think they were suggesting the only way to avoid being an idiot (or worse) is to grit one's teeth and find a way to get turned on by all sexual organs without fear or favour? surely not? it's silly. if you want to participate in this board, engage with the people actually on it and take a minute to actually read what they're saying. if you want to argue with other people elsewhere don't let us stop you but why don't you go to those places where they are

Meanwhile, how many prominent people in the LGBT community are doing anything to counteract its effects, e.g. saying explicitly that genital preferences AREN'T transphobic?

you can go outside and hold a sign saying "genital preferences aren't transphobic", instead of doing this. because no one wants to argue with you about what you have admitted is a minority opinion, held by how many people with any sort of power? it is a mystery. is being called a transphobe online better or worse than the actual, material effects of "trans people are trying to force me to prefer their genitals" articles appearing in the mainstream UK press every day? the world will never know.

also next time use the hidden tag instead of making a huge wall of shit with a tiny apology on top

UK discourse around trans people is the main thing that makes me feel good I'll never live there again

i dont know who momus is and never heard him mentioned in the time i've posted here which is way too long. but as edifying as it would be to have some cis ppl debating what is and isn't transphobic, i think you might do well to reflect that your 'arguments' have been recognised instantly by everyone else on the thread as talking points from transphobia internet (in any case, ones rebutted before you even posted by nicole) and nobody is particularly interested in being drawn into your "i dont even see gender! who's the *real* transphobe?!" nonsense, random interloper with barely developed backstory. Please do better at mangling yr bullshit into something less instantly identifiable as the same old.

― plax (ico), Monday, November 1, 2021 11:18 PM

I don't see how nicole's points rebut mine because I agree with nicole. As I said above, it is towards the blanket statements found among social media and some posts in this thread ( i e "genital preferences' are really idiotic") that is problematic. To suggest I don't see gender, when I have spent so much of my life in a place where gender differences are often extreme and forced, is absurd and not based on what I have said.

you can find clumsy unnuanced blanket statements on all sorts of political positions on social media but the main reason this particular position has gotten so much attention is because transphobes have found use in weaponising it as an anti-trans propaganda tool. like i very much understand the issues people have with how it comes across, why people get so defensive in response, and have agreed that it's not at all a helpful lens to discuss the issues it's trying to. i lived through tumblr, i've seen so much worse clumsy trans discourse than this but this is what's gotten the attention.

i haven't seen any evidence that the most bad faith unnuanced reading of the 'genital preferences are transphobic' position is at all the one many people actually hold though. like being charitable i would expect most trans people taking that line to be clumsily trying to make a point about how sexual preferences are shaped by a transphobic society. a minority probably would defend 'if you have any genital preferences you are personally a transphobe' (& i agree that's unreasonable) but it's still a stretch to take that to mean 'trans people want people who aren't attracted to them to have sex with them out of obligation'. again i understand how it can be interpreted that way though and i agree it's a totally unhelpful phrase.

even how many prominent people in the trans community are actually saying 'genital preferences are transphobic' (regardless of what they mean if pushed to clarify)? a few minor figures on twitter? this thing has become really overblown because again, it's become very useful as an anti-trans propaganda tool. i'd strongly advise people to please go find better things to do than get mad because some minority of a minority have made clumsy & dumb political statements on twitter.

By August 10th 2020 it was revealed by GC activist Suzy Ireson on her Facebook that she had been posting these stickers up on the Torquay sea front where they had been found by other gender critical activists who pulled them down believing them to be real. pic.twitter.com/46vt7F8xF8

— Mallory Moore (@Chican3ry) October 27, 2021

fwiw here's an example of transphobes admitting to being the ones putting up stickers with 'genital preferences are transphobic' as an intentional false flag.

what is being described as bigotry is not being sexually attracted to certain people

- has anyone *actually* personally called you transphobic because you're not sexually attracted to certain people?
- was the person who called you a bigot someone you otherwise respected?
- have you suffered personal or physical or professional consequences?

because otherwise i get the sense that this is rhetorical for you, in which case i would suggest chilling out until it actually has anything to do with you

i mean it's possible that people will criticize your comedy show and it's possible that you will get flag posted off this site, but there are no gangs of trans thugs coming for you

If you're worried about being forced to have sex with a trans person it might be worth examining why you are worried about a non-existent threat involving a minority group routinely the target of moral panics. As things stand, nobody is saying that being attracted to any specific person is transphobic, however when you arrive spouting terminologies ('genital preference') with no anchor in anything except anti-trans culture war stuff (maybe you think that the phrase is an artifact of gay liberation, it isn't) it makes people less inclined from the get-go to engage in some how-many-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin dialogues about what is and isn't transphobia, particularly with those who seem primarily motivated by the right to be able to publicly express 'preferences' that luridly draw attention to intimate parts of other people's bodies in a deeply othering way. Why aren't more lgbt leaders affirming the legitimate concerns of anti-trans hate groups quoted in BBC articles? Its a mystery! Similarly its a mystery why the offence taken by (my count) three (3) gay men on this thread to being invoked as being at-odds with trans people (through this reductive and rude framing) is so easily ignored, yet conversely the anxieties and worries of new poster kafka keba (interests: borges, specific genitals) are to be treated to delicately in order not to be accused of "bullying behaviour." I'm not that old but im old enough to remember very similar rhetorical devices used to disseminate exactly the same kind of subliminal nastiness about gay men so forgive me if my reaction to their deployment here is with a similar disgust as I have for all your reactionary forebears. Try not to keep dragging your squalid bullshit in here.