Is there a name for that genre of turn-of-the-90s pop-rock with the positive vibes, huge guitar leads, and gated drums?

en vogue "free your mind" belongs in this category imo

Haha I loved that King's X song at the time.

omg is "Planes" one of these?

Haha I loved that King's X song at the time.

Still like it tbh

This also popped into my head -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVXjBMK3EkI

omg is "Planes" one of these?

Planes?

sensual aircraft

en vogue "free your mind" belongs in this category imo

― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:25 AM (thirty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

not that i totally understand the parameters of this thread but this song strikes me way more as “r&b + hair metal hangover a la ‘black cat’ by janet” or “featuring slash (even though the song doesn’t feature slash)”

tho if “black or white” counts then maybe i’m wrong

R.E.M.'s "Stand" shares a bit of this DNA.

Collective Soul were briefly mentioned upthread but they sort of inherited the mantle of this sound moving further into the 90s, no?

No! (xp re "Stand")

Yeah I think "Precious Declaration" at least seems to carry this in its sound. Not as sure about their other stuff.

i was just about to mention Collective Soul, and Tonic, in response to hearing King's X's guitar breaks. very direct line of succession IMO.

King's X is a bit different from what I thought this thread was about tbh but if that fits, how about solo Robert Plant like "Tie Dye on the Highway"? "Tall Cool One" might even fit by the narrower definition?

I think I'm coming around to thinking of this unnamed genre as having a pretty small, exclusive "core" of perfect fits, surrounded by various hybrids which are individually more numerous (roots-rock version, clubby/dancey versions) and brushing up against the New Jack Swing solar system also.

To my ears, "Tie Dye on the Highway" lacks too many of the common threads and late 80s production tropes to qualify, but "Tall Cool One" with its booming empty space, makes sense for one of the satellite categories. who is that inventing Marilyn Manson's vocal delivery in the spoken-word section at 1:45?

speaking totally as a layperson when it comes to production, it's hard for me to be too precise about this, but i feel like one of the unifying threads could be producers going ALL in on gating sounds, maybe also something to do with the switch to digital equipment...? the tightest-fitting examples are very very "clean" - sounds decay really quickly and don't overlap and wash together; the sound does not feel like a live band. so for example, even on something as comparatively artificial as "Tall Cool One," Plant knows he's trying to hearken back to Johnny Burnette's "Honey Hush" (right??) and instinctively wants to sound like a bar band that's really cooking, really boogie-ing, perhaps even choogling. the desire for an updated radio-ready sound is cutting across that, to make something that is unmistakably of its time and very weird. but it's still - again, to my ears - distinct from Roxette on "Joyride," where they seem really actively excited about crafting a fresh modern pop-rock sound for the 90s, and every piece of it sounds like it's proud to be pasted in from a different recording session.

"This and That", Michael Penn's follow-up single to "No Myth", has more vigorous rhythm guitar, and less of the vintage keyboard retro elements.

I'd say that the more jangly the rhythm guitar (R.E.M., Cranberries), the further you get from this sound. Appropriately, "Pop Song 89" is probably as close as R.E.M. came to this.

agreed on jangle and "Pop Song 89." would be fascinating to get the isolated tracks of that one and try to remix it with Berry's drums massively overclocked and punching through the mix. "This and That" is pretty close to the mark for an acoustic variant!

Semisonic > Mister Mr. > The Call

(Though Semisonic is late 90s so is more of a piece with the Goos etc.)

Your comments make sense, Dr. Casino.

After checking the video and a couple of live clips from around that time, I'm pretty sure the deep spoken part on "Tall Cool One" was the keyboardist and co-writer Phil Johnstone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey14j7c9Phw

(1:45)

How about Semisonic antecedents Trip Shakespeare?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkOepnPJS3o

The "positive vibes" are as essential a part of this aesthetic as the bright, clean, separated mix, the gated drums and the buzzing guitar. It's like there was a brief moment of euphoria after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when innocence, happiness and hope for the future could be expressed lyrically without seeming trite or corny. That moment quickly wore off and the rest of the '90s overcompensated by fetishizing an angst and cynicism that in retrospect seem a bit out of proportion to the way things were going in the country at the time.

U2's Zooropa is the transition between those two times ^^.

The European Union forming in January 1993 is another part of this transition: the optimism of peacetime, a new level of cultural homogenization, and the pushback from right-wing/nativist movements.

My friend just spun this on his TwitchStream

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGSHIidlesQ

Mock Turtles: "Can You Dig It?" (1990)

That song reminds me that Byrds-esque jangle (most likely via REM) was a major ingredient of this micro-genre.

no one mentioned freedom 90 yet? that's a big one imo

Horribly bad album title I've always been confused by turns out to have horribly bad origin.

Schubert Dip is the debut album by British rock band EMF, released on Parlophone Records on 7 May 1991.[1] It features the worldwide hit single "Unbelievable" which reached number one on the US Billboard Hot 100. The name of the album is a pun on the name of the popular sweet sherbet dip and the 19th-century composer Franz Schubert.

Woah, that Mock Turtles song is pretty cool! Definitely towards the indie end of things but the impulse towards a clear, ringing, booming sound is there, and certainly the Positive Vibes. Get one really assertive commercial producer in the room and it could have been the theme song to a Friends-wannabe show. Apparently Fatboy Slim remixed it in 2003, but to the extent that he changed anything it seems to have been to muddy things up further with busy percussion, spacey whooshy noises, and turning the organ way up in the mix.

Another single from the same album, "Strings and Flowers," similarly straddles the thread's core and what I think of as Britpop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZeohb-kpI

How influential was REM on British bands of this era? I would have assumed Johnny Marr as a more important source than Pete Buck, but I have no idea.

How influential was REM on British bands of this era?

That's an interesting question. There are tantalizing bits of evidence scattered around the web. It seems that they weren't very well known in the UK until their breakthrough hit 'The One I Love', which went top 20 in the UK, though not for lack of trying. They actually recorded Fables of the Reconstruction in England, and toured on it in the UK, but apparently without much traction.

The band's third album, Fables of the Reconstruction (1985), demonstrated a change in direction. Instead of Dixon and Easter, R.E.M. chose producer Joe Boyd, who had worked with Fairport Convention and Nick Drake, to record the album in England. The band members found the sessions unexpectedly difficult, and were miserable due to the cold winter weather and what they considered to be poor food; the situation brought the band to the verge of break-up.

https://classicrock.fandom.com/wiki/R.E.M.

Also found this amusing early interview where they disavow any direct Byrds influence:

As for frequent comparisons to the Byrds, (Buck) declares, "I probably listen to people that stole from the Byrds more often than the Byrds. I've got one Byrds album, and it's the one that doesn't sound anything like them -- Sweetheart of the Rodeo -- because I love Gram Parsons. The Byrds are OK, but none of us ever paid much attention to them."

Instead they point to the Velvet Underground and country music as major influences.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/20/rem-rocks-backpages-classic-interview

I like the careful wording of "what they considered to be poor food".

It is interesting that the left not just the South, but the U.S., to record their big Southern Mythos album.

(I actually don't think I knew, or at least remembered, that – I think I assumed Joe Boyd came to the U.S. for the sessions.)

How influential was REM on British bands of this era?
That's an interesting question. There are tantalizing bits of evidence scattered around the web. It seems that they weren't very well known in the UK until their breakthrough hit 'The One I Love', which went top 20 in the UK, though not for lack of trying.

It only became a hit *after* they'd broken through with Out of Time. It was re-released in either 1991 or 1992. Their first hit was Orange Crush - not massive, but definitely top 40 because they got on Top of the Pops.

Yes, I remember that one: "Nice and cool on a hot summer day, that was REM with ORANGE CRUSH!!"

1) That's not what the song was about
2) Even if it was, did it need that level of explanation?

I forget the presenter, but I don't think he was on much after that.

The One I Love was taken from the non-US Best Of which IRS released on the back of Out of Time - top 20 in the autumn of '91

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLCobKFPxQk

Never heard the Fatboy Slim remix of that Mock Turtles song but the Steve Proctor piano / breakbeat / house mix is pure sweet MDMA. Nothing to do with the genre in question except the ridiculously positive vibes.

It only became a hit *after* they'd broken through with Out of Time.

Interesting. So I guess that's another point in favor of them having little influence on UK bands in the 80s.

R.E.M. were big UK sellers the faster their American popularity waned.

Even though it’s more on the enigma/proto-trip hop side of thing, for some reason I keep thinking of moodfood by moodswings (feat the cover of “state of independence” with Chrissy Hynde). there’s some big sampled drums on there though. and I get major “paisley shirt of synthetic fabric” vibes from it. Feel like “worldbeat” (ugh) stuff runs parallel to this thread’s remit… the vague we are all one people, love the planet vibes, idk

So I guess that's another point in favor of them having little influence on UK bands in the 80s.

I mean, they were definitely known in Britain in the 80s by the kind of people that would have been in indie guitar groups. But they wouldn't have been known by, say, your aunt until 1991/92.

Direct from tonight's TwitchStream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9TsXzOkoMc

Ian McCulloch: "Honey Drip"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o20_aSVM9Rk

Baby Animals: "Painless" (1992, singer is/was married to Nuno Bettencourt)

never heard that before! what an amazing '1992' combination of elements.

I remember them - when I was doing more music business work, I somehow ended up on the promo list of their US agent when their first album was released. IIRC the singer was on the short list to take over vocals in INXS.