Is this anti-semitism?

I'm considerably more familiar with the mother than the daughter!

I showed the video to my kids and their reaction was basically "well, yeah."

I think the "Jews don't count" mentality has been so pervasive for so long at this point that a lot of Jews have maybe internalized it themselves (myself included). Which is I suppose kind of odd, given that there was a serious and almost successful attempt to wipe Jews off the face of the earth *in my own mother's lifetime.* It's odd to be part of a minority in some ways famous for surviving and being successful in the face of adversity, which, combined with decades/centuries of the anti-semitic tropes Silverman illustrates (Jews are rich, Jews run Hollywood/the world, Jews are smart, whatever) has eroded sympathy and perhaps instilled no small degree of self-consciousness/self-loathing, which Silverman also illustrates, and which critics of her criticism have glommed on to. "If Jews run Hollywood, and Jews produce and write the movies, then why don't they cast more Jews as Jews?"

I am technically Jewish, tho was not raised in the faith. I guess that I'm confused about how people *know* that someone else is Jewish?

Jewdar

I am technically Jewish, tho was not raised in the faith. I guess that I'm confused about how people *know* that someone else is Jewish?

― I'm a sovereign jazz citizen (the table is the table), Friday, October 1, 2021 2:48 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is a simplified version of my upbringing, but let me tell you, the kids with the last name Mengle sure knew.

I grew up in a very Jewish area, so the fact that I'm part Jewish but not raised as a Jew was always very apparent to me, especially in 7th grade when all my friends were having wild Bar/Bat/B'not Mitzvahs

And yes, I went to TWO B'not mitzvahs as a teenager, wild chances I know.

I'm confused about how people *know* that someone else is Jewish?

I am too, but the Chabadniks definitely always find me when they're on the prowl to get people to shake the lulav or whatever, doesn't matter how big the crowd, they zero in, "Sir, are you Jewish?"

I think that because my Jewish side is mixed with someone with most black Irish and Welsh blood, I don't get "called out" as being a Jew based on my appearance, at least not in the way some other people might.

I don't really care if non-Jews play Jews. I think the complaint about representation typically comes from groups who don't get roles proportionate to their numbers. I don't get the impression that there's a dearth of Jewish actors getting roles, either as Jews or non-Jews. I was more bothered by something like School Ties back in the day, where in order to cast a "hot guy" Jew, they cast a non-Jew.

I disliked the characters in Transparent to the point that I had to stop watching it, but at the same time I can't exactly say it's because they are Jewish stereotypes. They are complex characters, they just kind of suck as people. I sometimes wasn't sure if the show was actually fully aware of how much they sucked, and that's part of why I didn't enjoy the show. It felt like there was authorial narcissism reflected in the characters' narcissism and therefore it wasn't fully knowing.

I am too, but the Chabadniks definitely always find me when they're on the prowl to get people to shake the lulav or whatever, doesn't matter how big the crowd, they zero in, "Sir, are you Jewish?"

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, October 1, 2021 3:20 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol, these guys spotted me on Sukkot from like 100 yards away - I was outside at a cafe near a train station and they were all the way on the other side of the platform - they honed in on me and crossed the platform just so I could do the lulav shake. I indulged them and then the cafe owner chased them away. I felt sort of bad because they looked like they were maybe 15 years old. But I'm sure they get it a lot.

I honestly love how much they don't give a shit what anybody thinks

I grew up in a very Jewish area,

How could you tell? ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiscEsSompQ

(2:05)

Lol, these guys spotted me on Sukkot from like 100 yards away

I was once at the Brooklyn Academy of Music with a friend for a history of hip-hop exhibit. He and I, er, look pretty Jewish, so on the way out we prepared ourselves for the onslaught. But they went right past us to Adam Yauch, who had just left the exhibit behind us.

I don't get the impression that there's a dearth of Jewish actors getting roles, either as Jews or non-Jews.

I think Silverman's main beef was that Jewish women specifically don't get cast as Jewish women, especially if they're the star/hero. Her specific list included more recently Hahn as Joan Rivers, Tracey Ullman as Betty Friedan, Felicity Jones as Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Rachel Brosnahan in "Mrs. Maisel," Rachel McAdams in "Disobedience," Valerie Harper as Rhoda... I can throw in off the top of my head Lorraine Bracco in "GoodFellas," Rachel Sennott in "Shiva Baby," um, Embeth Davidtz in "Schindler's List" ...

I just googled and found this from 2011, pegged to Minnie Driver playing a Jew in "The Governess:"

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/if-in-doubt-cast-a-gentile-1179822.html

And of course there is a long and storied history of, from Lauren Bacall (nee Perske) to Jennifer Grey, Jewish female actors getting nose jobs to get acting jobs, whereas Jewish men from Dustin Hoffman to Woody Allen were allowed to be very Jewish leads. You know, "ethnic types."

JiC, you grew up around here, I think— I didn't even realize it until I was in 5th grade or so, all my friends started having to go to Hebrew School.

this was very much my experience as well living in Brookline, MA

Yeah, I was just, er, Joshing. I grew up in West Chester, PA, and honestly didn't feel the Jewish community there was any more robust than it is here. Which is to say, relatively modest compared to the burbs north of Chicago, or the New York/New Jersey area, or LA, etc. Or even Squirrel Hill in Pittsburgh, where my friends grew up (and attended the synagogue that was shot up).

In that Silverman thing she talks about casting actors as her (real life) mom in a play, and all the actors kept coming in with exaggerated New York-styled caricatures of Jews. And she's like, I grew up in New Hampshire, my mom is from Connecticut, she's nothing like a New Yorker. And yet for some reason that's where those actors went when asked to play a Jewish mother...

but isn't the offensive caricaturing of Jewish women the problem, rather than whether or not the actress doing the caricaturing is actually Jewish?

lizzy caplan should be getting all these roles imo

I wouldn’t use the word complain...

― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Thursday, September 30, 2021

"i guess you could say more of a kvetch, if i'm being honest..."

wtf

NEW: A school administrator in Southlake, Texas, advised teachers last week that if they have a book about the Holocaust in their classroom, they should also have a book with an "opposing" perspective.

Listen to the audio recording obtained by @NBCNews: https://t.co/vS0IjlROMu pic.twitter.com/yPtM1ncjgV

— NBC News (@NBCNews) October 14, 2021

That's not a good sign.

"We need our children to hear the Nazis' side of the story before we rush to judgement here. Those Nuremburg trials were a travesty of justice, held by" (checks notes) "a government of the USA run by a Democrat."

That story and the whole hubbub surrounding Southlake, TX, is absolutely mindboggling and depressing.

So @jonstewart recently broke Hollywood's complete silence on @jk_rowling unapologetically maintaining antisemitic folklore through Harry Potter. pic.twitter.com/ezWrxpzryB

— raf (@rafaelshimunov) January 3, 2022

I saw that thread earlier and am embarrassed to admit I missed the STARS OF DAVID on the floor of the bank?!

(I mean I missed them when I saw that terrible movie; they are impossible to miss in that clip)

Tbf:

Newsweek et al, may eat my ass. pic.twitter.com/eRoYYeNRi1

— Jon Stewart (@jonstewart) January 5, 2022

huh. I rewatched the first clip after that and, I don't know exactly why he's backpedalling but, come on, he brings up the protocols! I mean yes they're all laughing but it's not just a "lighthearted conversation" what a crock

David Baddiel, who took Corbyn's pronunciation of convicted paedophile Epstein's surname in a tv interview as a coded anti-Semitic slur is being very generous and *nuanced* in his interpretation of JK's use of this PotEoZ imagery.

There's a surprise.

xxpost I *think* what the backpedalling is about is that, similar to what Sarah Silverman was saying, Jews (and others) are so used to these sorts of centuries-old stereotypes that they're almost invisible in their offensiveness. Like, these stereotypes are straight out of the Protocols and yet, even if no direct ill-will was intended toward Jews, apparently nobody stopped to note that. Like, they're innately anti-semitic even if those invoking them are not necessarily themselves anti-semites.

That makes sense and I can see being annoyed at the nuances being sanded off. Unfortunately I dipped a toe into the twitter discourse on this and the world's biggest assholes are all celebrating his defying of the cancel cartel

Meaning his point about the tropes being in fact dead obvious and undeniable is being jettisoned in favor of "they keep trying to come for Rowling but she's unimpeachably good"

Why *is* there a banking system in a world where you can magic shit out of thin air? What are the economics there?

— Tom Munday (@tommundaycs) January 5, 2022

Our statement on suggestions that JK Rowling's portrayal of the goblins in the Harry Potter series is antisemitic pic.twitter.com/v9twpzkxM4

— Campaign Against Antisemitism (@antisemitism) January 5, 2022

our bigoted friend is just simply just referencing the inherent AS in Western literature with plausible ignorance and gets a free pass, cos she slagged off that evil nazi Corbyn

Are they like that in the books or just the film? I haven't read or watched either

The 'plausible ignorance' thing w regard to antisemitism and other prejudices is interesting. Questions wd arise from its application

"I haven't read or watched either"

sounds like a plan. I've only seen pics from the movie or read brief summaries of her goblin banker characters.

they're like that in the books too but the films probably make it worse with just how explicit it is

it's true that goblins do have existing associations with anti-semitic tropes but rowling certainly went above & beyond other contemporary portrayals of goblins in just how much she leant into those tropes. lol at all the 'corbyn is a nazi' types rushing to defend her though, makes it very clear what's going on

I wouldn't have ever imagined goblins to have pointy noses, working in a bank with a big ol' Star of David on the floor!

Really didn't jump out at me (a Jew) while reading the books

goblins being greedy & having pointy noses aren't rowling inventions (though neither are they essential parts of goblin mythology) but making them bankers certainly was

I saw this earlier:

I can’t believe, in 2022, people are tweeting furiously about Harry Potter, but fwiw, here’s JK Rowling’s actual description of the goblins in the actual book. I dunno, man, but if you read this and think “Jew!”, maybe Rowling isn’t the one with the problem pic.twitter.com/8ToGgXa2OY

— Hadley Freeman (@HadleyFreeman) January 5, 2022

I'm not sure I'd immediately classify that as antisemitic, but were I JK's editor I would have queried "a swarthy, clever face" and been like "r u sure??"

(and in this context it's extremely lol to highlight that as definitive proof of non-antisemitism without even going into the fact that that is not the only appearance of the goblins)

it definitely didn't occur to me at all when I read the book, and definitely did when I saw the movie (even without noticing the six-pointed star on the ground, I take some issue with it being called a "Jewish star" since a Jewish star typically has the lines of the two interlocking triangles defined rather than being filled in like a sheriff star).

IDK how much say Rowling had (if any) in the movie's depiction.

rowling was pretty heavily involved in the movies, to a very unusual degree for an author having their books adapted. highly unlikely that she personally demanded they look that bad but not at all free from responsibility there either

I ultimately don't care v much. I don't think she intended, even subconsciously, to attack Jews.

David Baddiel, who took Corbyn's pronunciation of convicted paedophile Epstein's surname in a tv interview as a coded anti-Semitic slur is being very generous and *nuanced* in his interpretation of JK's use of this PotEoZ imagery.

dystopian pic.twitter.com/vFYiBswZ8T

— Brandy Jensen (@BrandyLJensen) January 5, 2022

first time I saw the Harry Potter movie was in high school and the teacher immediately called that out

no one's really saying rowling is a committed antisemite or that it was a deliberate attack on jews, just that it leant into antisemitic tropes in a way deserving of criticism. people have been saying that for years, just it got a whole lot of attention now because someone fairly high profile brought it up. what's more striking is all the zionists/centrists/transphobes falling over themselves now to directly say "it's fine because we generally agree with her" when none of them are known for extending remotely the same charity to anyone left-wing.

it's not like it's the only instance of racism in the potter series either, the books are full of embarrassing racial stereotypes, but it's not like any of it is unforgivably bad in the way her transphobic activism is. the sort of thing that could probably be resolved with a simple apology if it'd blown up when she wasn't so embroiled in various culture wars - though i kinda doubt she ever would have been humble enough to say 'my bad'.