is calling someone a 'Karen' inherently sexist?

It is sexist in the sense that people often use it to mean "(white) woman whom I don't like / who is complaining too much."

otm. although it might have originated referring to the phenomenon of white women harassing POC, in my experience hearing people use it IRL it is fully divorced from any racial connotations and become more closely associated with the blanket concept of complaining/asserting. I hear people using it to describe antimaskers making a scene in public, and also saying things like "i insist people wear a mask in my home, i'm a real 'karen' about it".

tbh ive been kind of shocked to hear this gendered pejorative being uncritically embraced by many people in my life who are otherwise fully on board with extremely strict language policing

yeah there was another component of it too, the affluent white woman who screamed and yelled at a restaurant's manager about frivolous banalities or demanded service after the restaurant closed, stuff like that.

i started to see more of the racial implications of it used after George Floyd, i.e. the woman who fabricated an physical abuse claim against a Black couple that she had actually been harassing, and called the cops on them. or the woman who told a Black man that she was going to call the cops on him and emphasize his race as a not-very veiled threat.

I've seen a proposal that a younger version of a Karen is a Becky, and an older version is a Susan. I've also seen Greg proposed as the male equivalent.

i've heard 'karen' with kind of a classist tinge iirc..

this makes me a not-perfect person but i have slurs that are ok to use, slurs that aren't ok to use. generally if they're punching up they're ok. 'karen' is complicated because it's a little from column a, a little from column b. an intersectional mean word if you will. 'bitch' is also one that's interesting because as a gay man i have a little bit of a different thing going on with it. i will use it in reference to other men but i'm really hesitant to think it or say it to myself in regards to a woman. i'm not free from the ambient misogyny that we all swim in and sometimes i'm not perfect. i'm still not sure if people's attitudes change when words become off-limits or if words stop being used when people's attitudes change tbr. but that's not the most important thing i guess, it's making it so that traumatized people aren't traumatized as much. words really are triggers. honestly calling a man a dick is not great because who's to say what sexualized trauma they may have experienced. of course men must not show any signs of trauma but that's part of the pathology and dynamic. ok done rambling lol.

I had a kid call me Karen for telling him to get off a shipping container and stop destroying school property, but I don't necessarily think a disgruntled 14-yo has his finger on the pulse of this sociological phenomenon.

And yeah to my mind, in all the usages I've seen in print (because I can't think of ever hearing anyone I know use it in conversation) it has had racist implications. If I were going for sheer over-entitled difficult customer, you could use "Linda" or "Debbie" or any number of white-coding slightly outdated names that connote a certain economic/cultural status + a certain age.

I hear people using it to describe antimaskers making a scene in public, and also saying things like "i insist people wear a mask in my home, i'm a real 'karen' about it".

It was disorienting to me to see people on Twitter yesterday call our own Joan Crawford Loves Chachi a "Karen" for tweeting at an airline about a pilot making a vaguely antimask remark. Feel like the term is becoming weaponized against anyone who calls someone else out.

Where I grew up every girl named Karen was from a lower socio-economic background so I instinctively find the term quite gross. It certainly doesn't signify 'affluence' or whatever to me.
Interestingly (or not) we've had Sharons and Darrens used as pejoratives when I was growing up.

... Traceys? Those are all classist, this Karen thing is too specifically American to fly over here.

... in its original form that is, I suppose I could see it being used for bossy, objectionable women of a certain age and class in the UK.

In my retail experience it was Middle aged men who were more likely to pull the talk to your manager shit, but it was from pure assholish entitlement usually. The Karen often has this gendered vibe of “you are making me feel unsafe by refusing to give me what I want”

in general i'm opposed to using real names as an insult and associating real names with specific types of conduct - even if people think they're "punching up" or whatever

xp Yeah I think that last part is exactly accurate, plus that's where the racism surfaces: "I'm pretending I feel unsafe because you're Black when really I'm mad that you didn't do what I want and I can use structural tools & violence to compel and/or punish you."

Most examples of the usage of Karen I've seen had nothing to do with race.

Here in the UK, I don't think that "Karen" particularly implies privileged prejudice against any specific minority groups, but a "Karen" is always white, usually lower middle class. Her classic line is "I want to speak to the manager", and her classic hairstyle is a streaked asymmetric bob. She is mocked for what is seen as a misplaced presumption of privilege/entitlement, and an unnecessarily confrontational manner. It's not a term that I use, or find funny. That said, when I'm DJing, and battling to resist prosecco-fulled demands for Whitney Houston NOW, the word can sometimes flit, unbidden, through my head.

Yeah, these people are thinking of like "permit patty" and "barbecue becky". Karen is for "I want to talk to your manager"/"hey you kids get down off of that thing"/"why are you still lighting fireworks the 4th of july was months ago" people.

it kind of merged with the original def: https://www.vox.com/21317728/karen-meaning-meme-racist-coronavirus

Her classic line is "I want to speak to the manager", and her classic hairstyle is a streaked asymmetric bob. She is mocked for what is seen as a misplaced presumption of privilege/entitlement, and an unnecessarily confrontational manner.

Yep, this is the usage of "Karen" I'm familiar with. TBH I'm never fazed when someone asks to speak with a manager, it's just part of my job ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Asymmetric bob really? Thought that was coded as 'alternative' or something (or Fleabag's sister's haircut - is Claire a Karen?)

I think calling someone a "Karen" is offensive to women who happened to be named Karen, many of who aren't "Karens" and some who aren't white.

some are not women

The masculine given name Karen derived from the Parthian name of House of Karen (or Caren), one of the seven aristocratic families of ancient Iran.

It was disorienting to me to see people on Twitter yesterday call our own Joan Crawford Loves Chachi a "Karen" for tweeting at an airline about a pilot making a vaguely antimask remark. Feel like the term is becoming weaponized against anyone who calls someone else out.

― jaymc, Tuesday, September 28, 2021 10:35 AM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Between this and Lee's point about how it just kind of sucks if you happen to be named Karen right now, I think it's kind of dead. It may have had its use but its dead now. I have also noticed people using "Karen" from the start of the pandemic to describe anyone leaning toward greater rather than lesser restriction.

xp i was debating whether to write "women" or "people", but couldn't think of any men named Karen; i stand corrected...

The majority of people who ask to see my manager do it because they want a discount. Or they don’t want to pay sales tax.

I see several "Karen" stories from the last couple of days:

Dog Park Karen tells black couple to "go back to your hood"

Karen boxes in red-light running car and calls cops

Karen is angry that someone left dog in a Tesla

Karen attacks Black men on subway, flicks her blood at bystanders

Karen harasses Black restaurant employees over mask policy

Karen boxes in red-light running car and calls cops

HERO

Karen needs to learn about Tesla Dog Mode

I have a racist idiot neighbour who I think of as a total Karen. & seems to be oblivious to rules pertaining to her while she seems to think I should view her as an authority figure. Wish I could go the rest of my life with never seeing her again. Set up of the entrance to my flat doesn't make that very easy.

Also did an Irish class with a person called karen who seemed to fit the term all too well.

BUt can see why a name that has been popular becoming derogatory in that way is problematic. & do know some pretty decent Karens.

xps why couldn't "woman" be used in those headlines? probably because everyone loves hearing about the whimsical adventures of this cartoon supervillain, the clicks speak for themselves

i think one good rule of thumb is that whenever anything becomes big and seems to be going "viral irl" in the united states, whether it's a word like Karen or a certain kind of furniture or pumpkin lattes or just anything that seems to be catching on: don't say it or buy it or do that. don't be like americans

it's almost always something that you'll regret later

Keep Calm and Chive On!

This thread is a de facto terrible idea

I think it's understandable to want to tease out some strand of The Discourse and take the general temperature of the room but "Overwhelmingly white audience, how do we feel about a term used to criticize us by non-white people when we racially profile them" is something I think you all should avoid doing

agreed. But this is also about white people using the term for whatever purposes. For instance, in the story about the Karen and the dog in the Tesla, both the dog owner and the person who wrote the article are white. The Karen's race is not specified.

the story about the Karen and the dog in the Tesla

i am not going to look this up and just accept my own version of what happened

(the person and their tesla careened off of a cliff while playing chicken with some local tuffs, but the dog easily jumped out of the backseat window just in time, then was quickly adopted and moved into their forever home)

Fwiw, for background, I was regularly using the term, moreso after the meme morphed from "lady with haircut complains/demands" to include Permit Patty, etc. two very feminist (and yes, admittedly, white) friends then tried to urge their friends to stop using this sexist term to silence other females.

I felt conflicted because I couldn't tell if where they were coming from was a) now everybody, regardless of race, is calling women 'Karen' for acting a way they don't like, and it's muddied the original usage of the word b) there are other ways to describe it who are better or c) if I myself was misunderstanding what a "Karen" was, because I was under the impression that it was being used as to clap back at the white, privileged folk who were using their whiteness to harm and malign BIPOC, and it felt very odd to me to be saying we should stop *that* behavior. one of said friends above relented a bit when someone pointed this out to her.

it seems itt there is similar confusion amongst many of us. but I don't want to have a poll that causes discomfort or the optics described above, so I am fine with locking it if that's what is preferred.

*that are better

a term used to criticize us by non-white people when we racially profile them

this is not the exclusive, or even most common, way that "Karen" is used

First of all it’s spelled kieth

go ahead and post through it, crüt; we'll be waiting on the other side

As usual the white people here are American white people but then all white people are American.

Once a term like this becomes this widespread it's already being used incorrectly and problematically anyway

Even if it wasn't before it went viral, which was maybe the question

Im not american white so im neither nor. I use the term "20 benson and hedges face" going back a long time for an equivalent purpose ive no doubt its problematic

Microwaving fish in an office has no racial connotation

Is what crüt said above controversial? Because I've only seen the term used to describe a type of behavior regardless of who it is directed at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWBBn-QsCAQ

WHY DID YOU DO THAT KAREN?

Yeah the few times I’ve heard it in the wild it is a white person talking about another white person.

Like much African-American derived language adopted/stolen by whites, the meaning has been stretched long past its original meaning in AAVE.

Got to be weird if your first name becomes a slur.

Exactly. No one should have to feel that about their birth name.

Especially my sister.

lotta karens in here trying to shut down this thread

I mean, just imagine the discomfort giving your own name with a Starbucks order. That's some bullshit.

Feel like karen is going the way of bacon and made of win and you, sir, have won the internet tbqh.

It's funny now to think how Bruce signified a gay man in the 1970s

My jerk stepdad carried this well into the 80s, pronouncing it 'Brewth' for extra emphasis

David Bruce Banner

they're not booing, they're saying breeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwth

Clarence was used in the same way in the Twenties.

To me it’s obviously sexist - its acceptable use among people otherwise ashamed to be sexist, is applied to people whose behaviour is worse than sexism. But it’s clearly casting women as strident and insistent on their perceived rights, the familiar “shrill” denigration. If someone is being racist or flexing privilege, just call it that.

the fact that "Karen" took off so easily as an insult for a certain type of woman, but there's no male equivalent despite men being equally reprehensible towards staff in public-facing roles, says so much about the way insults are gendered.

In the shop I worked in until fairly recently, if a customer wanted to speak to a manager, we didn't refer to them as a "Karen" but we did joke "you'll know who she is, she's got the haircut."

I mean, I live in a cave but ime it’s women calling other women Karen, and I don’t know if that’s sexist. But yeah dudes calling other women “karen” is pretty sexist, yeah.

when it's just a stand-in for "shrill," it's sexist whoever it's coming from

if someone is being racist or flexing privilege, just call it that

...but agree with this. karen's become some a catch-all-insult (like, i guess, "mansplainer") that i imagine it would be super easy to dismiss being called a karen. racists will always hate the hell out of being called a racist, though.

It's funny now to think how Bruce signified a gay man in the 1970s. That one didn't stick.

It signified an Australian in most of the Anglosphere, I believe.

... the rest of the Anglosphere, that is.

Sheila being the female equivalent of course!

So it seems random names get associated with various characters and change over time? Susan? Wally? Bruce? I've never heard of any of those signifying anything specific.

you really have to read the silmarillion to get all of the lore

Just ask any Tom, Dick or Harry

It's funny now to think how Bruce signified a gay man in the 1970s. That one didn't stick.

― ... (Eazy), Tuesday, September 28, 2021 3:30 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Clarence was used in the same way in the Twenties.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, September 28, 2021 4:57 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

what about steven, roy, garry, danny and max?

Adam and Steve.

'Guido' is another one: actual name, slur, and perhaps also reclaimed as a self-identifier

“Karen” has always seemed to me to be fairly straightforward coding for “bitch” so ahma say yes in principle but not in action the the thread q.

"Bruce" for Australian came from Monty Python iirc

Possibly but I suspect it existed before that.

Overwhelmingly white audience, how do we feel about a term used to criticize us by non-white people when we racially profile them" is something I think you all should avoid doing

― talkin' about his flat tire (DJP), Tuesday, September 28, 2021 9:48 AM (yesterday)

yeahhhh this thread makes me uncomfortable for that reason. Though maybe some ilxors live in homogenous places or for whatever reason, the use of the term that they see most often has no racial implications or connections? I don't want to be a jerk, but, my experience is, I see it mainly used in the original sense, or close enough to it? Mostly it's a black person calling out a white woman.

You live in the US, most of the world doesn't.

It's a US term and the ppl using it outside of the US are mostly aware of its US-specific racial implications imo.

I don't know because I don't know who's using it or even if it's being used.

I mean, I'm sure it is being used but whether it's being used correctly I'm somewhat less sure about.

This is what Karen discourse looks like on the normie internet
https://www.thedaddest.com/trending/karens-acted-entitled-fb/1/

for christ's sake put on adblock and open in a private window if you actually click this garbage.

let me know if we get this one sorted out

ok Kevin

let me know if we get this one sorted out

― mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Thursday, September 30, 2021 4:44 AM (one hour ago)

otm -- I'm outta here

It's pretty obvious that half this thread understood the term differently. Idk why we're pretending these posters are being disingenuous but w/e.

Lock request is in cos this isn't productive

Xpost who am I kidding of course I know why lol

How did you envision this thread going?

Lock request is in cos this isn't productive

― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Thursday, September 30, 2021 9:16 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Asking to speak to the manager now are you

since we've now reached the "I'm going to ignore the actual shit that was posted in the thread and assume bad faith" portion of the thread, as I explained earlier...

1) I have several feminist friends who very much consider themselves allies that were asking people to stop using this term because it was sexist and used to shut down women

2) this seemed odd to me because I had felt the utility of the term was calling out people using their privilege to actively harm BIPOC, and it didn't seem that these friends of mine would want to shut THAT down

3) so I thought maybe the issue is that the term was being used indiscriminately and the well had been poisoned and it was being used to basically attack women and nothing else

4) or that perhaps it was a term that we as allies shouldn't use, and reserve it for BIPOC to use.

5) then it emerged that some people ITT didn't think that's what Karen meant at all

6) I posted this which actually pointed out that the original meaning of "Karen" changed a lot, and nobody engaged with it at all: https://www.vox.com/21317728/karen-meaning-meme-racist-coronavirus

7) DJP posted a good post about how the thread was coming across and how it was a bad idea. i hoped people would engage with it, and few if anybody did.

8) it then moved to light j'accuse

delete thread, account, dn, i don't care

xpost

but if it makes you feel better to think I deliberately created this for LOLs and clusterfuckery, hey, whatever

(for the record i've never denied that my understanding of the term squared w/ the racial usage, but it was clear itt that other people had never understood it that way, or that we were conflating "Karen" with another term, which peace, man even addressed)