Silicon Valley Techno-Utopianism

"you are my eternal 'OK', washing over me with alrightness"

I dunno, your partner starts texting you lyrics from "The Wind Beneath My Wings", I'm not sure "OK" isn't the proper response.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/032/520/yeahgood.jpg

it's contagious

Sunak says he was inspired by his time working in California.

The years I spent in California left a lasting mark on me ….

…. working with some of the most innovative and exciting people in finance and technology.

Watching ideas becoming a reality.

Seeing entrepreneurs build new teams.

It’s not just about money.

I saw a culture …

…. a mindset …

…. which was unafraid to challenge itself...

…. reward hard work ...

…. and was open to all those with the talent to achieve.

I look across the United Kingdom …

... and that culture is here too ….

it's contagious

_Sunak says he was inspired by his time working in California.

The years I spent in California left a lasting mark on me ….

…. working with some of the most innovative and exciting people in finance and technology.

Watching ideas becoming a reality.

Seeing entrepreneurs build new teams.

It’s not just about money.

I saw a culture …

…. a mindset …

…. which was unafraid to challenge itself...

…. reward hard work ...

…. and was open to all those with the talent to achieve.

I look across the United Kingdom …

... and that culture is here too …._

Was thinking recently about how in the "fintech" and "defi" spaces you always hear these entrepreneur types talking about the "unbanked" and how they are going to give these people "access" to financial services. As though the cause of poverty is not having access to a bank, rather than, you know, not having access to MONEY.

Because the banks are killing us with all their fees! I say as I pay a $90 gas fee to buy a $50 jpg of a llama.

man alive i’m pretty sure giving them money i.e. loans is part of their plan!

people not having access to good, non-usurious banking IS a real problem. solutions like california's recently-signed-into-law public banking act are, of course, opposed by bankers and the silicon valley set, who are more interested in solutions which double as businesses.

As though the cause of poverty is not having access to a bank, rather than, you know, not having access to MONEY.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, October 5, 2021 8:24 AM (two hours ago)

Of course there are profiteers that see the problem as a way to extract their cut, but there are definitely aspects of not having access to a bank / financial institution that can extend credit or loan money that perpetuates poverty. Even when people have money. There's also a lot of structural racism in the U.S. that has created these conditions such that isn't just a rich vs poor issue.

man alive i’m pretty sure giving them money i.e. loans is part of their plan!

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, October 5, 2021 12:31 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

But this is just the "microcredit" myth all over again. That failed. People need more money. If they have more money, they will get access to banks.

I don't think Tracer Hand was implying that giving those loans would be in any way designed to help the recipients, just the lenders.

right, I guess I was conflating Tracer's likely ironical post with sarahell's more earnest one.

there are a handful of post offices trialing what I’d think of as “postal banking-lite” right now that I read about the other day

it’s tricky to understand how onerous some of these things are, especially if you’ve never done banking. if I’d never set up an account before, would I even be able to? what about minimum balance requirements and fees?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/04/usps-banking-paycheck-cashing/

on the other hand, I was able to set up a new checking account a couple weekends ago online because I already had a brokerage account. something like four clicks and it was open, a couple more and money was on its way in, and the debit card arrived within a week. the processes and technology to do this are in place, they’re just locked away from anyone who’s never banked. and it really shouldn’t be a high profit center for SV tech vultures

If they have more money, they will get access to banks.

that worked out really well in the past 100 years for black people that wanted to buy houses in segregated neighborhoods

like you can approach it from a hardline anti-capitalist stance and say private financial institutions are all bad and should be abolished, and thus these fintech companies are horrible because they are private financial institutions. That's totally legit.

but for decades there's been so much predatory lending and the whole check cashing /payday loan sector (which is also short-term predatory lending), and some of those harmed by it are not that much less financially stable than some people who do have bank accounts. A big difference is race and ethnicity, and where people live and work. Is there even a bank in the neighborhood?

And then you factor in the historical racism practiced by traditional banks, and you have a problem that is both class-based (where people need to be paid more and have a stronger social safety net) and race-based.

also -- does Pete Sm1th still post here? This is where he is a viking iirc

this is just the "microcredit" myth all over again. That failed.

Has this truly failed? i.e. well-meaning westerner loans woman the money to buy a goat, all of a sudden her life has changed and her kids are in school

I still get a lot of solicitations from orgs that do this, all because I donated to the Heifer Project like a decade ago

I don't want to say that such a thing can never be structured in a way that helps, but I think the consensus emerged that, as practiced, it was not helpful and possibly even harmful
http://yris.yira.org/comments/2062

like you can approach it from a hardline anti-capitalist stance and say private financial institutions are all bad and should be abolished, and thus these fintech companies are horrible because they are private financial institutions. That's totally legit.

but for decades there's been so much predatory lending and the whole check cashing /payday loan sector (which is also short-term predatory lending), and some of those harmed by it are not that much less financially stable than some people who do have bank accounts. A big difference is race and ethnicity, and where people live and work. Is there even a bank in the neighborhood?

And then you factor in the historical racism practiced by traditional banks, and you have a problem that is both class-based (where people need to be paid more and have a stronger social safety net) and race-based.

― sarahell, Tuesday, October 5, 2021 3:53 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I would be willing to bet that very few people who consistently earn a stable, full-time living wage needs to rely on payday loans. No question it would be better if there was some less predatory alternative to payday loans, but you'd likely have to make it non-profit -- the reason payday loans are high interest is because a fair number of people wind up unable to pay them back, because they don't have money. The problem comes back to people not having enough money.

I'm familiar with the history of redlining and discrimination in lending, but I'm not really sure how that's a problem that fintech or defi solves (although I'm open to hearing how!). Obviously it's bad whenever there is racial discrimination in lending standards, e.g. a black person making the same wage gets a higher interest rate. But, again, I think it's a bit of a myth that there are neighborhoods where otherwise financially stable people don't have access to banks or financial services at all. It's the people who lack a living wage and financial stability that are most likely to lack access to those things.

it depends on your definition of financially stable ... and the other issue is how financial services can increase financial stability. I went about 10 years without having a credit card, and I had plenty of "fuck, how much is it gonna cost to fix my car?" episodes when I didn't have the cash to pay for it. Want to start a business or go freelance as opposed to working a shitty minimum wage job? ... anyway ...

but I'm not really sure how that's a problem that fintech or defi solves (although I'm open to hearing how!).

I definitely don't see these industries solving the problem, but there is less historical baggage and the fact that they don't have the same geographical boundaries might be helpful, as well as issues related to language barriers. There is a whole area of marginalized people that need foreign exchange/transfer services that I don't know enough about to have an opinion about whether fintech is useful.

No question it would be better if there was some less predatory alternative to payday loans, but you'd likely have to make it non-profit

Yeah, there's a fair amount of movement towards community-centered non-profit financial institutions where I live, that seem to be the most equitable solution. If the tech industry wants to get into the market, so to speak, I think it would be better if they provided services and/or capital to these institutions, similar to how PayPal, Square, etc. made it more accessible to accept payments and process credit card transactions

i obv agree that in general it would be good for people to have access to full-time work paying a living wage so they could be "financially stable." millions of people don't, though, and are preyed upon by usurious payday loan operations. seems like one good solution would be to create a non-usurious alternative form of bank (you suggest "non-profit"; i suggest "public"), and concurrently regulate the loan sharks out of existence. there's very little for whiz-kid tech investors to add to that picture imo.

public is also another option!

yeah, I am absolutely loathe to mutter the phrase “public-private partnership” but if so-called tech innovators have a role here, that’s what it’s got to be

the problem isn’t just a lack of working day-to-day capital, or even the lack of financial/food/housing support mechanisms, it’s that those programs are very difficult to access, often by design. if every resident could have postal banking, with a set amount of no-fee overdraft… why not make an account overdraft an opportunity to contact the person and get them enrolled in government and community support programs?

there’s the entire entrenched distrust in some of those programs that have been less successful, but that’s another issue..

I'm glad to see this topic discussed. I was asking about a project that very much embodies it back in June, but nobody replied. (I'd still be very interested to hear any of y'allz thoughts on it.)

I know that banking systems around the world are usurial and extractive, but it seems to me that lots of people in the crypto sector overstate the positive impact that a more ethical banking industry and improved access to it would have on the impoverished and the rest of the 99%.

Anyway, mostly I just wanted to say I appreciate all your musings on the topic. I'd stay glued to this thread today if I wasn't under a 48-hour crunch to move everything out of my recording studio to a new, much less preferable spot, due to an eviction served under pretty shitty circumstances.

how does a crypto token address banking in any way shape or form when the question we’re asking is “how can I put my money somewhere that isn’t cash (paper money), and then I can go buy a loaf of bread with it at the store?” or “how do I convert my paycheck into cash/money in an account without onerous banking terms or using a cash checking place?”

it doesn't; crypto is Vegas-like monopoly money for suckers and rich people, we need to force it over the cliff so it can die.

That’s a good question and one I’ve never seen satisfactorily answered by the defimaxies. In my dabbling you can borrow, lend, stake, invest, trade, etc, but not indication of how I could get a pack of gum from the store.

Coinbase has their new debit card, but that isn’t truly decentralized, nor are you directly spending your cryptocurrency, they’re just taking your crypto and giving you fiat that becomes your spending money. Plus there’s the whole mess about what constitutes a taxable event.

I've seen a handful of these ATMs that convert Bitcoin in these shabby convenience stores. Definitely one of those things that make you wonder...

monopoly money for suckers and rich people and criminal enterpises

I just want to use my Bol Bol topshot to buy some gum. Is that too much to ask.

I've seen a handful of these ATMs that convert Bitcoin in these shabby convenience stores

These completely baffled me until I realized that you put money into it rather than withdrawing

These completely baffled me until I realized that you put money into it rather than withdrawing

― Andy the Grasshopper, Wednesday, October 6, 2021 2:19 PM (three minutes ago)

I had no idea until now. But yeah, the two convenience stores I go to on the reg both have these machines - one downtown and one in Temescal

the only one i ever saw in Brooklyn was at a bodega with intensely bad service that was repeatedly shutdown as a hotbed of K2 deals, and which is no longer in business.

I saw some of those in Canada, but I’m pretty sure they may have been linked to Quadriga, which was outed as a completely pyramid scheme after the founder died. OR DID HE? there’s a good cbc podcast on it

in any case, bitcoin has absolutely no use for anyone living hand to mouth and even the one davey is mentioning does nothing if you don’t transfer money in — at which point they apparently give people who have bought magic beans a percentage of additional magic beans

the entire thing with an asset that can be used for speculation, or illicit means, is that the market means nothing to people who 1. can’t afford to gamble 2. can’t afford to buy in

if you were buying/selling picassos or whatever, maybe you can get a legit buyer down the road after you overpay to someone who doesn’t care where your money came from. with cryptocurrency, you’re willing to take the risk your money goes up in smoke because you don’t want to be seen with suspicious money or assets

along that line, it makes me now wonder about the “guy found a legit picasso in his grandpa’s closet” stories that come out in the news. more like “guy mysteriously misplaced a large amount of illicit assets and a private collector mysteriously misplaced a picasso at that guy’s house”

About the “oh wow I found a Rembrandt at a garage sale!”:

https://www.npr.org/2014/03/27/294919256/a-tiny-renoir-stolen-in-the-50s-finally-comes-home-to-baltimore-museum

I thought these were pretty much known to be covers for recovering art off of the black market.

Respect to the lady who stole it (or got someone to steal it) and stayed quiet for 50 years.

this is a decent piece on what a better banking/transfer system looks like

https://tigerfeathers.substack.com/p/the-internet-country

i can't remember where i found this so maybe it has already been linked upthread

Aw too bad

!!!

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) — Jury finds Elizabeth Holmes guilty of conspiracy at her former blood-testing startup Theranos.

— Mahen Gunaratna (@GunaRockYa) January 4, 2022

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMsspRbXMAATxOO?format=jpg&name=small

lol

We're about to get into a golden era of dramatic adaptations here of this kind of stuff -- Super Pumped started last night, The Dropout starts later this week, the WeWork one in a couple of weeks...

I think I'm going to watch some of them before I deem the era golden

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2022/2/25/22949799/super-pumped-showtime-dropout-hulu-wecrashed-apple-tv

xpost Well, gold-plated.

reminds me of the weekend when my friend's son was insisting part of an action figure was real gold because the packaging said that. it actually meant shiny gold paint