Magic: The Gathering C/D

just playing this new set on MTG Arena and there's no way in hell the day and night thing isn't going to confuse the hell out of me in IRL games

XP I haven't opened a Geistflame Reservoir yet, but it seems like a fun piece for this deck.

Demilich could be a good wincon in a version of this deck that runs more cheap interaction (Play With Fire, Fading Hope, You See A Guard) and no Seize the Storm.

are there any good podcasters or you tubers who dissect new sets? I find it really hard to get a grip of this stuff

It seems like there's a ton out there, but I find MtG content unlistenable/unwatchable because it requires such familiarity with all the cards involved. Like to understand a single sentence I would need them to slow down and explain each card, lol.

I also can't imagine some of the games I've played happening on paper, with all the crazy synergies and mechanics.

I always enjoyed the Limited Resources set reviews, even though after a few of them you can fairly well predict how they'll rate cards

i dont really listen to LR since its kind of the level 1 draft strategy podcast and i need the level 2 stuff but it was still a bummer to see them promoting crypto on their recent shit

the level 2 stuff is sam black's ramblings

I made a haphazard version of that red/blue burn deck, just out of whatever I had lying around + a draft and some extra wildcards. Got some fun wins when I was able to draw the Thermo Alchemists and keep them on the board, but the losses have been pretty spectacular. Like if they have good aggro or they're able to quickly pump up a few creatures out of the range of my burn spells, and I'm just fiddling around with a hand of draw spells like Expressive Iteration/Electric Revelation without being able to do much about it.

Definitely need to keep tuning it (and I'm already going to take out Demilich and some of the other ones that haven't amounted to anything), but maybe I need some more small creatures to play defense/draw fire?

3 Roil Eruption (ZNR) 155
1 Bloodthirsty Adversary (MID) 129
2 Expressive Iteration (STX) 186
1 Shock (STA) 44
1 Demilich (AFR) 53
4 Frost Bite (KHM) 138
1 Consider (MID) 44
1 You See a Guard Approach (AFR) 85
3 Saw It Coming (KHM) 76
1 Electric Revelation (MID) 135
1 Prismari Command (STX) 214
1 Unexpected Windfall (AFR) 164
4 Thermo-Alchemist (MID) 164
1 Smoldering Egg (MID) 159
1 Obsessive Astronomer (MID) 152
1 Crush the Weak (KHM) 128
2 Play with Fire (MID) 154
1 Firmament Sage (MID) 53
1 Geistflame Reservoir (MID) 142
1 Shock (ANB) 84
1 Birgi, God of Storytelling (KHM) 123
1 Galvanic Iteration (MID) 224
2 Fading Hope (MID) 51

1 Island (MID) 381
1 Frostboil Snarl (STX) 265
9 Snow-Covered Island (KHM) 279
8 Snow-Covered Mountain (KHM) 282
5 Mountain (MID) 383

Imo this deck is not really worth playing if you're not playing Seize the Storm, as it's the main win con. Death by 1000 Thermo-Alchemist pings is a nice backup plan, but as you noted, those guys tend to draw removal and they don't block super well against the aggressive decks of the format. It feels bad when you're on the draw and they go Ranger Class, level up, attack into your Alchemist with a 3/3 wolf; in those situations, I take the 3 damage and save the Alchemist to block something even bigger next turn. Turning the corner usually involves Seize the Storm making a huge token and shutting down their attacks, but if they get your life total low enough then it can be too little too late.

Against green, I jam the Seize first chance I get. Blizzard Brawl usually won't kill the token, though they can hit it hard enough that it dies from combat damage if you block with it that turn.

Against white, I try not to play Seize until I have a way to protect the token -- it makes a very tempting target for Portable Hole (though thankfully it dodges Skyclave Apparition). I also try to save my removal for their fliers as much as possible. Foretelling Crush the Weak is usually a better turn 2 play than anything else you can do (protects it from Spellbinder). Don't be afraid to play instant speed card draw or burn on your turn to get around Paladin Class.

Angels are a tough matchup, thanks to the combination of high toughness + fliers. I've added some Heated Debates (the 4 damage for 3 mana spell that's uncounterable and gets around Ward), and it seems to help. I also brought in a single copy of Burn Down the House, for those times when Crush the Weak just doesn't get the job done.

Wow, you weren't kidding. I put in four of those and promptly won a bunch of matches, some with alchemists and some just with Seize (never drew them both in a match though, weirdly). Also took out Bloodthirsty Adversary in favor of another Galvanic Iteration.

I also underestimated how much people hate playing against control, I've had people concede in a few turns when they might have won otherwise.

I actually think Werewolves are decent in Limited, the fact that they can come into play transformed when it's nighttime is a big advantage on the old ones. It doesnt have the reach of other decks but sometimes just always having the biggest dudes on board wins you games

I don't understand how anyone gets out of platinum, every time I go on a win streak I end up having some bad match-ups or ridiculously bad shuffles and end up back at the bottom, lol. I've had some fun games though, including one mirror match with the red/blue deck (they got lucky and had their Fading Hopes handy for my Seize the Storm tokens, I didn't have any counters handy).

so far in my Sealed leagues I'm 16-2 with R/W and 13-14 with everything else. it's not as flashy as the U/B Zombie nor as explosive as G/W Coven but it's got the most straightforward gameplan

Still having fun with the red/blue deck (and doing better as I'm getting used to it), but also crafted a black/green Poison Elves deck based around Fynn the Fangbearer and Saryth, the Viper's Fang. Only played 2 matches with it so far but promising so far.

Still feeling like draft is just a fun way to get cards and packs, constructed/standard is the real game for me.

so far in my Sealed leagues I'm 16-2 with R/W

16-2!!

I actually won a game with Vorpal Sword's ability. O_O

Been refining that Poison deck (actually ended up taking out Saryth in favor of more deathtouch creatures) and having fun with it.

absolutely addicted to MTGA now.

my favourite aspect of magic is limited. I like drafting. to do premium draft on MTGA without paying anything you have to play a bunch each day and you maybe get to play once a week. it's a shame, but I guess beggar's can't be choosers.

incidentally I am fucking shit at drafting and not improving at a particularly quick rate.

looking forward to the new set which is out a week on Friday iirc

it's definitely something that takes a lot of experience, especially with how good they are these days at making all the sets play really differently from each other - a lot of the classic heuristics no longer work

but it's also very rewarding since as you improve you'll be able to squeeze more and more drafts out of each entry fee via winnings

I've only played one draft and a few Sealed tournaments, but my initial impression is that this is a significantly slower and grindier format than Midnight Hunt -- which is great! Games seem to have some real tension strategic tension between holding extra lands to cycle with your blood tokens, or playing them out so you can get to 7 or 8 mana and be able to protect your bomb rare on the turn you play it.

No flashback and no disturb cards that return as creatures means there aren't a lot of non-land cards you're happy to pitch to discard effects. Cards in hand seem even more important here than in most other formats, because of the potential to cycle things away late. If you're in red and/or black, anything that gets you card advantage is playable, no matter how situational. Blood Fountain plays much better than it initially looks, and the 1-drop skeleton that can return from the graveyard to the battlefield plays much worse (you'd rather have it back in your hand 95% of the time). A well-timed Aim for the Head can be absolutely back-breaking, and it's not totally dead late because of the potential to redraw with a blood token (or, very occasionally, to cast it as targeted Zombie removal). The black common that draws 2 and makes a blood token seems excellent, and unlike Infernal Grasp (the "destroy a creature, lose 2 life" instant) in the last format, you're rarely under do much pressure that the 2 life risks costing you the game.

I haven't seen it yet, but I have a feeling that Green/White is the gonna be the hardest combination to make work, as neither color has good ways to get card advantage at common. (Mulch is nice, but it's a lot better in a color combo where you can make blood tokens and cycle the lands to draw spells.) There are some strong uncommons in green that can draw multiple cards if they stick around, but they're all very situational (one triggers off Humans dying, one triggers off Wolves and Werewolves dying, and one triggers off +1 counters being placed on Humans). White does have ample ways to repeatedly gain small amounts of life (Traveling Minister and Heron of Hope are two of the best), which pair very nicely with the uncommon W/B vamp who lets you pay 2 to draw a card at the end of your turn if you gained any life.

Cool, I've done a couple drafts and I'm having more fun with it then usual. Went 1-3 with a slapped together blue/red deck, but now I have a BW deck going that pulled Voice of the Blessed and won its first match against the same colors.

Seems like the cards that give blood tokens another benefit could be key?

it's a much more color-balanced format than the past couple, red and black are a little better than the other colors (due to having the best removal in a set where removal is particularly good), but not to the ridiculous extent that blue and black were in Midnight Hunt, and there's no color weak enough to avoid. the early crowdsourced data does show GW in last place of the ten pairs but only by a tiny margin.

best commons are Abrade, Bleed Dry, and Flame-Blessed Bolt and then a dropoff to the rest of the good removal and creatures.

there's a lot of fuck-off rares that just win the game on the spot unless they're answered immediately at instant speed. definitely going to be a format that rewards people who can shrug off losses to bombs and not tilt. also makes evolving wilds and the green mana guy better than usual for splashing them

Both green mana dorks seem very good.

My most tilting loss so far was a Sealed game where I was way behind on life, cast Dreadfall Demon (true fuck-off rare, a 6/6 flying demon that eats your other non-Demon creatures and craps out more 6/6 fliers) to answer my opponent's Henrika Domnathi (another fuck-off rare, it has flying and deathtouch and lifelink and can pump the rest of the squad). I also had a Kessig Wolfrider (solid but not game-breaking rare; very good with the Demon though since you can make a wolf token for it to eat every turn) and was feeling pretty good about my position... Until my opponent untapped and cast Path of Peril (the 6 mana W/B wrath with cleave)

*that should say DreadFEAST Demon

My first draft involved joining a queue without realizing the client hasn't performed the necessary update, so I couldn't see any of the cards at all! First time the game has not auto-updated or given me an error when I tried to log in. By the time I performed a manual update, my draft was over and it auto-picked everything for me. Was hoping it would at least stick to two colors but it was all over the place, and I had to make a three-color deck which I was damn lucky to go 2-3 with

So it's pretty embarrassing that in the two drafts I've done since I've gone 1-3 and 1-3 haha. Still don't have a very good handle on the format clearly. My first deck (BW) lacked two drops and my second deck (GW) had a good curve but nothing to break through a stall. I also lost one game to turn 1 Traveling Minister, turn 2 Voice of the Blessed, which was uh fun

Vinnie, you should write to Wizards support and ask them to reimburse you for the draft that didn't work at all. Their software is supposed to update itself to the latest version when you open the client. I wrote to them when the prerelease launch bugged out, hung repeatedly and eventually dropped me, unprompted, from the sealed event I'd entered. They refunded me twice over, since I'd asked for some consideration for the lengthy amount of time I'd lost.

I just drafted that exact Traveling Minister + Voice of the Blessed combo, heh. Haven't started playing matches, but I hope I can run it out on turn two at least once ^o^

Oh here's the support link btw: https://mtgarena-support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

Already wrote them but cheers

they're generally pretty good about refunding your draft entry if anything goes wrong

agree with a lot of these assessments. every match I seem to get into some board state reminiscent of those old "Magic: the Puzzling" articles Mark Rosewater would do for InQuest - you have so many moving pieces on the board, you know you can do something, but you can't really get through by attacking so many creatures have high toughness. I have a U/B deck going in Sealed like that...half the creatures form an engine of some kind but I'm never quite sure what I'm supposed to be doing with them. Conversely, when I do have removal it's often not clear what I'm supposed to be targeting with it. Ultimately, I just wind up winning with Hullbreaker Horror.

I guess in some respect it's a real skill testing format but I am hearing a lot of players better than me say it's poorly designed in the same way Avacyn Restored was. There's not a lot of good removal and there are a bunch of backbreaking rares. Also, idk if this is just the deck I'm playing, but there are some parasitic mechanics which force you into interesting choices but aren't a lot of fun. The Blood tokens can be used for like a dozen different cards, and also you want to sac them to cycle, but my deck seems to want way more than I can produce. Several cards exile stuff from your graveyard but others want you to keep it full. There just seems to be a lot of tension within your own deck. I suppose you could make the argument that this is actually good gameplay and that recent sets tend to hold your hand way more but in my first few tries at least I'm not finding this very fun.

I do wonder if the presence of Blood tokens makes this a format you want to play 18 lands in. What are the pros doing?

people who think this set is like avacyn restored didn't play avacyn restored. the removal here is totally average for a modern limited format, and AVR was bottom 1 all time. AVR was also not a very bomby format, half the time you played your bomb it got bounced by Mist Raven and you died to commons

AVR had normal power level rares that couldn't be dealt with because there was no removal in the set, this set has some really high power level rares and normal removal which makes it more comparable to war of the spark or theros beyond death

idk I do think the removal is at least less efficient than other sets. Black has a 1 mana -2/-2 and a 4 mana one for 2BB. Red's common removal costs 5 and deals 4 damage. Blue has a -X/-0 one that I suspect is really not any good. Green's fight spell is kinda weak. White gets one that's either 2 or 6. It doesn't feel on the order of Defenstrate/Moonragers Slash/Candletrap/Duel of Dominance to me

AVR's problem was it based its Limited play around the Soulbond mechanic which I think necessitated that instant-speed removal at least was hard to come by, since it would make it too easy to blow out your opponent and make its central mechanic unfun. I guess I can't say if it really did have more bomb rares but my impression was that it was heavy on rares that were not really playable in Constructed but could utterly unravel a game in Limited if left alone for more than a turn. this set seems to have that problem too...too many rares like Tolovar's Huntmaster, where either you kill it right away and wind up a little behind, or just watch helplessly as it ruins everything

xp I think I played 18 lands in the R/B sealed deck I've already mentioned, because I had blood tokens and mana sinks (Kessig Wolfrider) and my gameplan was "Stay alive until I can find and cast my 7 mana demon." But I haven't like adopted it as a general rule

Red also has Flame-Blessed Bolt at common, and White has Sigarda's Imprisonment.

Wolf Strike is strange to me because it almost seems like an anti-Werewolf card. If you're playing werewolves, +2 power at night isn't super relevant because your creatures are already bigger than everything else. If you're U/G or G/W, though, you can potentially trade the Strike and one of your 2/2 or 3/3 dorks for a couple big beefy werewolves (as long as they don't Strike your creature in response and blow you out)

ah, forgot about the bolt

Sigara's Imprisonment is fine as alluded to above there seems to be a bigger difference in this set between removing a creature and making it useless in combat

red also has Abrade, its got 2 really good removals at common. the 4 damage one sucks but you don't need it

red, black, and white all have 2 good common removals plus an extra weaker one, green has one good one, and blue has 2 playable counterspells. pretty sure that's running above average for recent sets. MID was an outlier (and even then only for black and blue, white and red have better removal in this set imo and green is a wash)

(for comparison, in AVR red had one good common removal and all other colors had 0)

if youre playing sealed as usual, maybe your pools have just sucked removal-wise. i promise it's there

that could be true, I don't look at spoilers and I didn't even see Abrade yet

to be clear I don't mean to imply this is as bad as AVR but in my limited experience it does bring back that feeling of "what's that do, holy shit that's bad for me, I don't think I have a single card in my deck that can deal with that" a lot. or maybe I'm just running into too many Sorins :)

yeah basically i'm trying to say that it's not AVR until you're saying "I don't think I have a single card in my deck that can deal with that" about commons and not rares

personally i'm just glad to finally have a set where none of the 10 color pairs is a trap, its been a while

I was playing draft the other day and thinking 'should I really keep discarding lands for these blood tokens? What if i draw my DREADFEAST DEMON, I'm going to want those lands!'

Currently sitting at 3-2 with that deck, obviously I'm going to lose the next match but it's been fun.

xp re: Two playable counterspells in Blue -- every single time I have put Syncopate in a deck & drawn it, it's like some kind of alarm goes off in my opponent's head and they play around it perfectly. I've literally never countered a relevant threat with. I don't *think* I'm telegraphing it, but... I guess I must be? Since they don't even get the telltale Arena priority stick until there is something on the stack that I can target.

yeah there shouldn't be a priority tell for counterspells, just suspicious open mana. obviously cards like syncopate get way better the more instant speed things you have in your deck since you don't lose your mana when they play around it

I mean if you F6 a bunch (pass all priority) or whatever the Arena equivalent is and then you suddenly don't it's an obvious tell that you've got something

counterspells are weird in these sets b/c blue doesn't really have much night/day stuff and passing the turn to counter something can really hurt you in fact

the white wrath effect in this set seems particularly good/brutal

I don't know what level of players you're getting paired against, Bernard, but I think the higher you go, the more players play around counterspells. And Syncopate in particular is a good one to play around, because 1) unlike, say, Wash Away, there are windows where it's easy to play around and 2) it exiles, which is quite relevant this set. And unfortunately there is kind of an Arena tell, which is that the pause only happens when there's a spell on the stack. So if my opponent is holding up UU, I will cast a spell that won't tap me out (if I have the luxury) and if there's a pause there but not at beginning of combat, you can be sure they're holding Syncopate

Feeling quite pleased with myself -- In my last draft, I first-picked Dying to Serve (black enchantment, whenever you discard a card create a tapped 2/2 zombie token, limit 1x per turn), which I've been wanting to play with to see if it can be good in a deck full of ways to make blood tokens. I didn't want to force it, but when I got passed a second Bloodtithe Harvester in pack 2, I realized Black/Red Vampires was open and buckled in.

Somewhere along the way, I also managed to snag the busted mythic uncommon Dormant Grove (green enchantment, put a +1/+1 counter on a creature every combat, transforms into a creature and gives your whole team vigilance if the thing you put the counter on has toughness 6 or greater), plus enough mana-fixing to splash for it. I ended up with an absolute beast of a deck that went 7-1 (one loss could have been a win had I not badly misplayed, saccing my Bloodtithe Harvester to try and kill something with 3 toughness... when I only had one blood token on the board)

Full list:
1x Blood Fountain B

2x Doomed Dissenter 1B
1x Mindleech Ghoul 1B
1x Ragged Recluse 1B
2x Bloodtithe Harvester BR
1x Wedding Invitation 2

1x Dying to Serve 2B
1x Blood Hypnotist 2R
1x Bloody Betrayal 2R
1x Honeymoon Hearse 2R
1x Vampires' Vengeance 2R
2x Blood Servitor 3
1x Foreboding Statue 3

1x Bloodcrazed Socialite 3B
2x Bleed Dry 2BB
1x Dormant Grove 3G

2x Falkenrath Celebrants 4R

1x Grisly Ritual 5B

6x Swamp
6x Mountain
2x Forest
2x Evolving Wilds
1x Voldaren Estate

okay hmm I guess that's not how hidden text tag works

Yeah, nice when the synergy comes together

I'm about eight drafts in and not feeling this set much but hard to put my finger on why. Maybe the gameplay is not novel enough? I'm not totally sick of it yet but I suspect I'll be calling it early on this format. Tho there is going to be a draft Arena Open next month, which is enticing me to practice

yeah I think a lot of people feel the same way. I've heard a lot of grouching about this set. feel like it might play better once you get used to it. one thing I will say is the -13/-13 instant exiling the creature seems super relevant - there are just so many death triggers/ways to bring things back. it deals with a bunch of those rares that otherwise would just win you the game.

my current pool has 3 Ancient Lumberknot and 3 Sheltering Boughs. so that's pretty fun, at least