I don't wanna change the worldI don't want the world to change me
― Duke Detain (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 16:47 (two years ago) link
-Ozzy Osbourne
I wouldn't say that Gorman has a foot in the traditional poetry world— she doesn't have any publications outside of a children's book and a book from a major publisher. The traditional poetry world is in small journals and presses operating on shoestring budgets, and has been for a long time. She's part of the commercial establishment, and her poetry is written to prop up that establishment.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 16:55 (two years ago) link
Great story a few posts back, table!
Ugh, thinking of a big success hated by myself and others, including Alfred, so can’t even type his name again right now. Of course I don’t have an MFA in poetry, far from it, but still.
― What Does Blecch Mean to Me? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:30 (two years ago) link
has a foot in slam world and a foot in traditional poetry world.
going back to an earlier analogy -- it would be like if John from Wolf Eyes was given a Guggenheim fellowship for music composition -- that's kinda how I see Gorman in re the "traditional poetry world"
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:35 (two years ago) link
Hint: his initials are not AD.
― What Does Blecch Mean to Me? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:35 (two years ago) link
I'd like to thank Aimless for bringing us together to reflect on how much of a dick move it is to 'dear' one of the few female posters left on ILX.
― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, September 7, 2021 2:41 PM (yesterday)
thanks for speaking up, Andrew! that post of Aimless' was condescending as fuck, and part of me felt like going off, but honestly, I had work to do IRL and it wasn't worth my time. ... Probably why a lot of people (women esp.) stop posting here.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:38 (two years ago) link
The traditional poetry world is in small journals and presses operating on shoestring budgets, and has been for a long time.
I consider the traditional poetry world to include the English classes Gorman took at Harvard, which would definitely classify what she does as part of their scope! Like, Jorie Graham would say her poems are poems, right? To me she's part of the traditional poetry world as much as small zero-budget presses but we don't have to use the same nomenclature, just saying what I meant by it.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:47 (two years ago) link
Thank you for speaking up, sarah. I apologize for the offense given. I thought I was simply playing on the phrase 'oh dear', but apparently I accomplished something more sinister. Andrew's comment was that of a bystander imputing a reaction you had not expressed. Your comment means something.
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:50 (two years ago) link
it was obviously a pun
― he ain't perfect but fuck me he's a rheillee (imago), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:53 (two years ago) link
not to sarah
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:54 (two years ago) link
I didn't see the pun at all, and thought it was a shockingly sexist remark. Going back I can now see where the pun was meant to be, but it was very much not obvious. And the lack of women here is by no means a "canard".
― emil.y, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 17:58 (two years ago) link
thanks emil.y -- and I appreciate the apology Aimless.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 18:17 (two years ago) link
maybe he should have thought about the optics of calling a woman 'dear' but I truly believe it was a good-faith pun gone awkward
― he ain't perfect but fuck me he's a rheillee (imago), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 18:21 (two years ago) link
and 'that's why all the women have left ilx!' as a response is laughable cmon
― he ain't perfect but fuck me he's a rheillee (imago), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 18:24 (two years ago) link
I laughed as I temp-banned you from ILAFL for your myopic post
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 18:30 (two years ago) link
Now do the rest of the site
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 19:48 (two years ago) link
*cracks knuckles, stretches hamstrings*
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 20:42 (two years ago) link
so uh who is the big success poet who’s hated by everyone?
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 20:57 (two years ago) link
"and 'that's why all the women have left ilx!' as a response is laughable cmon" is why all the women have left ilx
― criminally negligible (harbl), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 20:58 (two years ago) link
referring to james redd’s post
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 20:58 (two years ago) link
here I thought the main reason given for leaving ilx was "a specific user, suc..." oops! nvm
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 21:01 (two years ago) link
suc never bothered me
― criminally negligible (harbl), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 21:02 (two years ago) link
Idk who JR is referencing, I was just thinking of Rupi Kaur-style Instagram poets, lol
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 21:02 (two years ago) link
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, September 8, 2021 12:48 PM (one hour ago)
I am but a humble sub-board mod
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 21:45 (two years ago) link
One can only try
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 21:46 (two years ago) link
there's an "Admin" menu, that if you have mod powers over a board, you can do things like ban, unban, threadban, and delete ... if you don't have mod powers, you don't get the special things you can click on -- no special things for me in this thread
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 21:48 (two years ago) link
I wish I had these special things, is all I can say.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 22:00 (two years ago) link
― Derek and Clive Get the Horn Street (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 22:01 (two years ago) link
Yeats
Cunt
― fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 22:12 (two years ago) link
xp to be fair his death did diminish him
― edited to reflect developments which occurred (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 22:16 (two years ago) link
The bell tolls for you imago cuz you’re banned!
― treeship., Wednesday, 8 September 2021 22:23 (two years ago) link
not "for thee"? tsk.
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 22:25 (two years ago) link
I want to apologize to imago. Was just trying to riff on donne. Not pick sides in a pile on.
― treeship., Wednesday, 8 September 2021 23:51 (two years ago) link
John Ashbery got a lot of hate for a decade or three there, from poets who felt any pressure to imitate him.
― ... (Eazy), Wednesday, 8 September 2021 23:53 (two years ago) link
I love ashbery
― treeship., Wednesday, 8 September 2021 23:58 (two years ago) link
hate ashberry? only hippies!
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Thursday, 9 September 2021 00:38 (two years ago) link
Ashbery wrote some great poems.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 00:55 (two years ago) link
I've read his long book-length poem, FLOW CHART, and after that, I never wanted to read him again. Not because it was bad, but because it sort of sated me for life.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 00:56 (two years ago) link
I'm into Ashbery, not knocking him, but Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror was the first book to sweep all the big poetry prizes in a single year, and (in the same way Raymond Carver would soon after for aspiring fiction writers) it divided those who followed him and those who felt marginalized by having an out-of-fashion approach.
One poet told me a story of how Ashbery took the podium once with two folders of poems. After doing the reading from one folder, he realized he had read from his rejected poems--implying that his games made irrelevant a "better" or "worse" one.
― ... (Eazy), Thursday, 9 September 2021 01:09 (two years ago) link
I love ashbery but I find some of the more frequent comparisons (to Stevens) puzzling and he makes for more sense to me as an heir of Laura riding and Marianne Moore, both of whom I love and both of whom he spoke of as influences. Particularly Moore's odd mix of looseness and precision, her love of banal language cropped strangely that gives them a common urban folksiness.
― plax (ico), Thursday, 9 September 2021 10:26 (two years ago) link
"Urban folksiness"! I love it. Sorta reminds me of Marjorie Perloff reacting to a poem by Charles Bernstein in this episode of PoemTalk (starting at around 09:45)
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/podcasts/151679/these-squiggles-a-discussion-of-as-if-the-trees-by-their-very-roots-had-hold-of-us-by-charles-bernstein
― Nature's promise vs. Simple truth (bernard snowy), Thursday, 9 September 2021 11:51 (two years ago) link
Eazy, that story makes sense— Ashbery in his day was an absolutely notorious drunk, a prof of mine had to chaperone him once and left him passed out on the lawn of another poet's house.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:29 (two years ago) link
as long as he didn't commit sexual assault that's cool
― sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:31 (two years ago) link
xp table -- I was talking to someone a few weeks back who had second thoughts about the ZH Open Letter incident from 2014 (?) (i forget whether it was 2013 or 2014)
― sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:32 (two years ago) link
and yes -- that was indeed a Literary Clusterfuck
― sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:33 (two years ago) link
Ashbery or my prof? Haven't heard tell of the latter, and all I know about Ashbery is that his female students report that he was often very cold toward them and their work. He was a learned homo of a certain generation, after all, so the misogyny is almost a given, unfortunately.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:35 (two years ago) link
lol I was referring to the issues in the infamous open letter incident of 2013/2014
― sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:36 (two years ago) link
re: the open letter and fall out from the Bay Area Poetry Summit in 2014— Z4ch H0uston *did* assault two friends of mine, that much is certain. I think that many people have realized that running abusive dudes out of town isn't a good solution, particularly in the frameworks of restorative justice and mercy, but this has to be a two-way street. The abusive individual has to listen to and own up to what they did, and in the case of ZH, he was refusing to do so.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:39 (two years ago) link
But in terms of other fallout from that? Did some of the other dudes who were merely acting "creepy" deserve to be put on blast and expelled from the scene? I don't think so.
― Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:40 (two years ago) link