I posted that one before but it looks like the root site had changed their bulletin board. But I found it on the 'way back machine' and will post details here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111229052820/http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/45901/0
tenaciousJay wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 12:05
Terry I wonder if you could comment on the guitar sound in Eliminator. What I always heard it was all Rockman - but was there an amp mixed in as well? And thoughts on the direction of that album as a whole - it certainly was a huge change in sound, even if there were hints of it on earlier albums.
The full story of the making of Eliminator (the politics, the chicannery, the technical aberrations, the high social drama, the exodus, the payback) is one that I cannot tell. Even if I could, there certainly wouldn't be room for it here! It probably won't even make it into "the book" (or the movie). Just don't forget that truth is often stranger than fiction!
However, I will address certain specific musical or technical issues, and I'll begin with your guitar amp question.
THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO ROCKMAN USED ON THIS RECORDING!
Not a little bit, not a tiny bit; NOT ANY. I don't know how these stories get started. Billy may indeed have used Rockman at a later date, after I left the situation, but I did not allow it when I was working with him. He did bring one in to try, but I was not satisfied with the sound, compared to an amplifier.
The amp used, almost exclusively, on Eliminator was a Legend. This was about a 50 watt hybrid unit, employing a tube/valve preamp, and a transistor power amp. This is the amp which has a finished wood case, and a rattan-type cane grill. It has one 12" Celestion speaker. Legend were later bought by, or at least distributed by, Gibson, but they were independent when we started using them. I still have this amp; it is almost new. A couple of years ago I plugged one of the Eliminator guitars into it, just to see...there was the sound!
The guitars were custom built by Dean. Dean were out of Chicago, and were trying to break into the high end (a la Jackson, PRS) market. They were very nice, albeit different, instruments. Subsequently however, they got a contract with Sears to make guitars, so they opted for the big bucks, Korean manufactured, low end market instead. But the ones we used were very nicely made. There were two which we employed. One was somewhat like a cross between a Flying-V and a Moderne shape, very long "ears," and the other was a sort of a warped, pointy Stratocaster-y shape. Both guitars had a single DiMarzio Super Distortion high output pickup, and almost no controls. I don't think there is even a tone control...what would you need one for? They have big, heavy, brass bridge/tail pieces bolted into the body. These guitars were very live, very resonant, and would verge on resonant feedback at all times; they were also very hard to keep in tune because of this. But they were always alive. Billy has the first one mentioned, and he gave me the latter, which I still have.
The guitar was recorded with basically only one setup; one amp (Legend), one speaker (12"), one guitar (Deans, the two were almost exactly the same), one mic (AKG 414B-ULS, I still have it) in one position (about 5" from the cone, placed at a slight angle off axis), one mic pre (the SpectraSonics console). 98% of ALL guitar on this album, whether lead or rhythm was done this way. Any variations were from the player himself, who, remember, did not even have a tone control. That's how good Billy was back then. We did use very briefly a small amp by Ross, but we didn't like it much, and I think only a tiny part or two was kept from this, if any.
The rhythm guitars were done in a precursor-to-Protools style. Short phrases were played, and then double tracked, onto one set of tracks, and then the chord change/next phrase was played on a second set of tracks. This allowed a seamless transition between changes; since the Deans were so close to feedback at all times (acoustically, through the fairly loud JBL monitors), we couldn't even lift the fingers to change chords! Then I would trim the edges of each section by punching in and out to silence at the beginnings and ends of the phrases (somewhat analogous to "trimming the region" today). This method also "eliminated" to a degree the loud harmonic squeaks between chord changes. The punch in/out points, if done exactly perfectly, made for a primitive cross fade of probably 10-20 ms, and ended up sounding very different as rhythm guitar, sort of like a big train rolling down a track, almost out of control; without knowing how it was done, one wouldn't really realise why it was different.
For the leads, as always, there was a lot of punching done.
The bass was mostly played either by Billy or by me, and was either a bass instrument, or a Moog Source (the Source was a Mini Moog [rhymes with 'Vouge'] analogue synth with digitally controlled parameters...I still have this, too). Synth chords were played on a Memory Moog (polyphonic Mini).
Billy sang great, different vocals, as usual, and the harmonies were done either by Jimmy Jamison or by me.
There are a MILLION more things which could be told about this distinctive album, but as mentioned, most of it is probably better left unsaid. But one interesting thing, at least to me, was the recording of "Legs." We had tried it a couple of ways unsuccessfully at Ardent, so I decided to try a new approach. I had a 24 track studio in my attic at home, so I took Billy's lead guitar and vocal home on a 1/2" two track L/R ("samples"). I recut the entire track myself, and then hand flew in Billy's parts onto the track. This meant careful timing of the play button on my MCI 1/2", for each and every phrase, as after a few seconds, they would drift out of sync. I mixed it there through my Soundcraft 1200 console (these were also the mic pre's) onto the MCI 1/2". The multitrack was also the Soundcraft 2" machine, which I really loved. Then I did a totally different version, which became the long "dance mix" later released to clubs, and it is now included in the new box set. Later, I saw a review of this dance version credited, to Jellybean Benitez ...go figure!
Anyway, that's a lot about Eliminator for now. Thanks for your interest!
Terry
compasspnt
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strawberrius wrote on Tue, 15 February 2005 11:17
terry -
are u saying you played the drums on LEGS? 1 @ a time O.D. style? or a kit?
that is insane - whenever i work with drummers, there is a fill that has become known as the "zz topper" which is any snare fill that ends with the last 2 16th notes of a bar (all over LEGS).
if this is true, then u r the creator of the famous "zz topper" fill. and although this is not a revolutionary drum fill, it has been mentioned by name in just about every rock session i have done in the last 18 years.
kudos!!!!
-john fields
Hi John,
Long time, no answer...sorry!
Well, I guess it can now be told, as long as you promise not to pass it on, but yes, I played the drums on "Legs," and in fact, almost the whole album. As mentioned, this song was recorded in my attic, except for Billy's lead guitar and vocal, which came from a previous studio version which was unsatisfactory. (Oh, if I could tell the whole, real story! Maybe someday...)
The drums were a combination of things. There was programming, on my Oberheim drum machine, and then a multitude of samples triggered in over the snare as well, using an AMS DMX, and very carefully manually trimming the input volume to catch every beat properly. The hat was a sound from the Oberheim mixed with some sampled things and some white noise, then gated and triggered from an arpeggiated spike. Then I one-at-a-time overdubbed certain other drums, some toms, and definitely cymbals. On some of the tracks of the album, I added to the tom sounds with a Simmons electronic kit, just barely mixed under the real ones, for tom 'fatness.' For the rest of the music track, a lot of it was programmed (step programming!) in my MemoryMoog. There was just barely enough memory in it to get a few things, then I'd have to re-program and punch in. I remember on one arpeg-16th sound, there was enough memory to do the whole song, but not to add any chord changes. So I would use a cassette case to hold down the tonic key (wedged in place using the F# black key as a 'holder') and then make the temperament changes with the detuning wheel. Not very easy, with the high technology available back then, but it forced you to be creative! I had to set the amount of detune for one change, then record the two passages, then re-set it for another change, start from the beginning every time, and punch in on the right spot. It took forever! The bass I played manually on a bass instrument, then doubled it in the manner mentioned above with the Moog. The rhythm guitar I played normally with a guitar, run into a Marshall head, then into my Harbinger speaker-booth-box (Ronny Montrose design out of SF). The pads and angel voices came from a Yamaha DX-9...I didn't want to spring for the whole cost of a '7'! The background vocals were done by me and Jimmy Jamison (who is now lead singer for Survivor, and can be seen on a new ad on TV, I think for Gateway or something like that). Jimmy did a lot of great BV's for me over the years. He can sound like whomever you put him with!
I mixed "Legs" from my Soundcraft 2" 24 track, through my Soundcraft 1200 console, onto my MCI 1/2" two track...I still have and use that 2 track today. Works like a hay baler, but actually records well...it's the tranformerless electronics version. The Soundcraft stuff I sold to Sun Studios, who put it into the famous old building. U2 recorded "Angel of Harlem" on it!
As for the drum fill, I would hate to take any credit as an inventor of a fill! Billy and I worked out most of the fills together...we were very into what type of fills would work in what places. We were expecially fond of the one you mention, and also were trying to find places where a fill could extend into the first couple of beats of the next bar, after a normal fill would have ended. I don't remember if we actually executed this or not...I'll have to listen to the whole Eliminator album now, just to see!
Anyway, that's some of the story. Thanks for your interest!
Regards,
Terry
compasspnt
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maxim wrote on Fri, 01 April 2005 21:52
... I'm trying to work out why exactly this process often involves replacing the original drummer...
it's so common, it's become an archetypal rock'n'roll story
is it to do with the difference between live playing and recorded drums
after all, it doesn't seem to happen (as much) with other instruments...
is "hit" drumming just about hitting the kick and snare hard on the alternate beats, and everything else is detracting from that feel?
i don't want to make this personal, but instead talk about it in a general production philosophy manner
could you elaborate on this phenomenon?
I think it is surely obvious that there is a big difference between professional session musicians and the average live band player. There is no substitute for crisp, well played parts when it comes to putting together a production. However, sometimes session players can sound "the same," and perhaps can lose the "trashy edge" that some bands have.
It seems that the drums are the most critical in this regard. Drums are the most difficult to "punch in" parts, and they need, in most cases, to be completed before other overdubbing can commence. For some reason, it does seem harder to make an average drummer come up to "pro record" level than the other instrumentation. In almost all cases, the singer is the one that cannot be replaced, so you have a given there. Guitars and basses and keys can be punched and punched, even in tiny segments, until they are more acceptable.
The standard way to get around the drum thing has been, short of replacing with a pro or using a machine, to record many takes and edit between them (aka "Metallica Syndrome"). But even with this, and perhaps sample replacement, there is still some hard to define difference that a studio pro "just knows" how to make.
Having said all of this, I will make it clear that my preference is always to use the actual players, to not edit between takes extensively, to maintain the best "live" feel the band can perform, in general to not resort to trickery. But sometimes you do what you have to to get the best record.
Also I will reiterate that this is not referring to Frank, ZZ's drummer. I stated before that I will not talk about certain aspects of the ZZ recordings, out of respect for the band and management. Frank did a marvelous job on many records, and this reflects upon him as a great drummer.
― earlnash, Sunday, 5 September 2021 12:26 (two years ago) link