The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (3246 of them)

I harped on him being a boring idiot with nothing to add besides being fucked up

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

as if counselors should be going around encouraging people to nurture violent revenge fantasies. yeah, that sounds like the road to mental health right there for sure yep.

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

not to get too boring myself here but posting that shit to the internet to try and make some kind of point IS dumb and fucked up and he got what he was asking for, fair's fair

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, when lurker originally posted the revenge fantasy I wondered if maybe I was overreacting by being weirded out, but then, in response to Kerm being weirded out AND RACE NOT HAVING BEEN MENTIONED AT ALL, lurker said this:

Really? What if I told you that she was [insert race here] and they were yelling racial epithets at her -- would it be OK then? Because it's definitely very important to me, you see, that I be indignant for the right reasons. I'll wait expectantly while you tell me what those are.

and that just seems so defensive and from a conversation lurker was having in his head, not a conversation that was taking place in this thread at all.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:44 (seventeen years ago) link

but John Justen has covered this already, better than I.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think he was trying to argue that the fantasy is morally justifiable. It's a fantasy. He was trying to argue that it is understandable that one might feel this way.

He does argue that it is potentially actionable, and I agree with you that it isn't, or rather that it may be but in only the most extreme, outlying cases (otherwise, there would be more news stories).

I don't think he was saying that revenge fantasies should be encouraged.

He was being defensive and dull-witted.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:48 (seventeen years ago) link

uh I just quoted a post where he specifically indicates that NOT encouraging revenge fantasies makes someone "a piece of shit".

but yes, let's drop it and move on oy vey

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link

A few quick points, and I'm done:

1) First and foremost, I apologize for bringing up rape, and if that was a trigger for anyone. My intent was to find out if John Justen's problem was that what I felt was with my situation specifically, or with the idea of revenge fantasies, etc. in general, no matter WHO was experiencing them. Look, it was deep in the a.m., and some dude was hectoring me endlessly about something I felt for ten seconds as a kid: I won't claim to have been at my best.

2) I stick to my guns absolutely on this point: people have fantasies like the one I described all the time. That's normal. The problem is acting on them, or obsessing about them. If you think it was inappropriate of me to post it, fine, that's fair enough.

3) Another one of my points: if I could get this riled up, and the wrong didn't even happen to me, how must the people who've actually been wronged (or who think they have) feel? Based on my experiences, most of them have had varying degrees of desire for revenge, and I'm not going to call that desire "creepy" by a long shot: again, it's just normal.

4) Then again, I will say this: I was once accosted/attacked by a gang of people. Didn't really get beaten up, but got the shit scared out of me. You'd think that I'd harbor fantasies against them, but I didn't at the time, and don't now. I think that people often tend to get more worked up over a wrong suffered by someone else -- again, part of the point of my story.

5) I'm glad that Nabisco and Trayce get where I was coming from; I'm sad that Ally and Tombot are infuriated. I wish I hadn't posted to begin with, as it was time we could've all spent doing something with/for the people we love, instead of arguing over this crap.

xpost no, Shakey Mo, I said that judging someone harshly for it, and describing it as "creepy as fuck", was shitty. If you told one of my friends who had been raped that she was creepy as fuck for having fantasies of torturing her rapist, I would think you were an asshole. Sorry, but I'm not budging an inch on that one: torture victims are entitled to imagine turnabout, they're just not entitled to act it out (and probably shouldn't spend a lot of time obsessing about it, which is still miles away from having the thought at all).

― lurker #2421, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Lurker misunderstood John's response and thought John meant that he would not be sympathetic to the pathos of the victim.

Obviously, to the rest of us, John did not mean that.

He really wasn't arguing that John was a piece of shit because he wouldn't encourage revenge fantasies.

But, I agree. I'll drop it.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

What about the gun control debate?

I have a question, and I know it's probably answered easily-- but what's the upside of allowing people to have handguns? At all? I mean, pretend every handgun stopped working today, so the "bad people have them" argument is lost. What advantages do handguns carry? I'm sure this has been explained upthread, and I'm even sure that I've responded, but I'd love to see a nice little list. Because most of the reasons I've heard have been like "so people can defend themselves" and that. But there are other, less lethal, and easier to use options (like pepper spray... or booby traps)

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, private citizens or anyone?

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:09 (seventeen years ago) link

Booby traps are, for the most part, illegal.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Sorry to try the D.C. bullyteam's patience: I don't think Lurker's been making his point very well or appealingly here, but people can at least try to be fair regardless. E.g., people keep talking about "nurturing" revenge fantasies here, which is a totally sleazy misinterpretation -- the issue was never whether revenenge fantasies should be nurtured, it was more that you shouldn't label someone a COMPLETE psychopath for once having gotten really pissed off and imagined taking violent action. No matter how clumsily he happens to describe that moment on the internet.

I can TOTALLY see why it bothers people that he's trying to hang that sort of thing on sympathetic imagined victims like women who have been raped, or victims of racial intimidation. But I'm thinking that's just clumsy rhetoric, and not anything creepy.

Maybe a better way to get back on the issue would be to ask the following: if someone you knew had been victimized/traumatized in one of those ways, and told you that he or she was going to buy a gun for protection, and this impulse was coming from feelings of fear and powerlessness and anger, what would you say? I mean, I'm guessing Lurker would say "don't get the gun," and John would say "get the gun and take a course that'll teach you to be responsible with it," but wondering more about the emotional response.

― nabisco, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Sorry, xpost, we seem to have gotten past examining Lurker, so just ignore my still talking about it!

― nabisco, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

The booby traps bit was facetious, I apologize :)

xxp

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Private citizens, sure. I can see why the military and law enforcement might want to have them.

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:12 (seventeen years ago) link

not having to rewrite the constitution is the advantage

― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:13 (seventeen years ago) link

THEY CAN TAKE MY BOOBY-TRAPS WHEN THEY PRY THEM OFF MY COLD, DEAD SEVERED ARM.

xxxxpost: "DC bullyteam" is the new "Noize dudes", apparently.

― John Justen, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link

The advantage? I think it is because they can be carried on your person much easier than other types of guns.

As i understand it, it is more difficult to be accurate with a handgun.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean, FB has it right: the specific advantage is that they're small and handheld.

swords:daggers and so on

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Let me specify then: What's the advantage to allowing people to have them? The 'hunting' thing doesn't really work. Or does it? Do people pistol-hunt? Pheaants or something? I recall hearing something like that.

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:18 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/images/ae/reviews/tombstone3.jpg
me, tombot, river wolf, john justen

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:28 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.wallpaper.net.au/wallpaper/movies/The%2520Ant%2520Bully%25204%2520-%25201152x864.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:28 (seventeen years ago) link

http://barros.rusf.ru/films/posters/ant_bully_2006_poster1.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:29 (seventeen years ago) link

How have I not heard about this movie yet?????

― Curt1s Stephens, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I meant more of a Tango & Cash duo!

― nabisco, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Nabisco OTM throughout. There's nothing creepy about Lurker's posts on this thread at all.

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:21 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought about how nice it would be to pull a gun on those pathetic, piece-of-shit motherfuckers. Make them grovel on the floor, call me "sir", beg for their lives. To turn their arrogance upside-down, to make it so that -- despite the fact that there were three of them, one of me, and any one of them could've beaten the shit out of me -- they were powerless, and I could force them to confront their own folly, to be a hair's breadth away from a death caused solely by their own arrogance and cruelty, and to be spared from it only by an act of mercy that exceeded anything of which they themselves were capable.

It is for this very reason that I'm strongly in favor of gun control.

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:23 (seventeen years ago) link

I read that, Mr. Que. Thanks.

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:24 (seventeen years ago) link

alls i'm saying is that's the post that really creeps people out

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, I know. It doesn't creep me out, though, because I understand the point he was trying to make.

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:28 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, but people who are creeped out by the way he made his point also understand the point he was trying to make.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:29 (seventeen years ago) link

his point seems to be that its okay to pull a gun on someone if they are calling you a bad name. and that's what happened in Columbine and in Blacksburg.

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:30 (seventeen years ago) link

the post says nothing about rape, nothing about murder nothing about defending yourself from a mugging, and that is why people think it is creepy. also, horseshoe OTM, i understand the point he was trying to make but i think it is creepy

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:31 (seventeen years ago) link

i was also creeped out by his fixation on repeatedly referencing rape victims and hate crime victims over and over and over again as like a "hypothetical situation", just fyi. like i said elsewhere, you can have a point that is partially correct and still come off like a pornographic creep. but thx for the thoughts, jaymc.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link

put it in yr spreadsheet.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link

xxp WTF, that's not his point at all. His point was that he was tempted to perform a violent act and that he's glad that there's gun control or else it would have been infinitely easier to enact that fantasy. Are none of you ever scared about what you're capable of? Wasn't there some Noise Board thread recently where everyone talked about how they frequently imagined themselves jumping in front of trains and stuff?

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:33 (seventeen years ago) link

OK, I am genuinely surprised that people think that first post is really creepy.

I think that his rhetoric after that post was reactionary and overwrought, but are people really weirded out by that revenge fantasy?

Or maybe people have a history with him that I am unaware of?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:34 (seventeen years ago) link

not having to rewrite the constitution is the advantage

Should the constitution be set in stone? Haven't values, threats, opportunities, etc. changed in the last two and a bit centuries? Shouldn't it be at least reviewed every fifty years or so to decide whether it's still worth hanging a flag on?

Sorry for being a crappy Brit about all this but "because my constitution says I can" is fuck all justification for anything in my eyes.

The right to bear arms for defence (or at least the right of Protestants to do so) was a tenet of the English Bill of Rights a hundred years earlier but I for one am glad that English Law isn't like tablets from Mount Sinai.

― onimo, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Mr. Que, that was most definitely not his point.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:34 (seventeen years ago) link

oh I sounded like a smarmy cunt there, sorry :)

― onimo, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:35 (seventeen years ago) link

(I only skimmed the parts in the thread where he talked about rape victims, so whatever, you may be right. But by that point, John Justen had already gone all "U R A MEGA-CREEP" on him, so I can understand his need to defend himself.)

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:35 (seventeen years ago) link

John, it's not his point that people have had a problem with. it was his lingering articulation of the revenge fantasy--(seriously, make them call me "sir"? more than I ever needed to read, frankly)--and the way the nature of that revenge fantasy seems related to his fixation on rape and his defensiveness about race.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:35 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, we're just reading the post in a different way, interpreting it differently? there's no reason to bring the Noise Board into it, for the record i was not part of the subway train thread imagination thingamabob. alls i know is if i was having those kinds of fantasies i would seek some help very quickly.

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:37 (seventeen years ago) link

if that was the only post he made about it then fine, or if he had chosen to explain it simply, then fine, but the atrocity exhibition that by his own admission had nothing to do with his actual situation at all that he created in subsequent posts is hella fucking creepy and disturbing for some of us. i can't speak for mr. que but i think it's obvious by john's posts that the post-initial-statement rhetoric being spouted was creeping him out! i mean yes he got called out for the overly lurid post but the way he defended himself is like basically stomach-turning.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:37 (seventeen years ago) link

lots of xposts obviously

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:37 (seventeen years ago) link

OK, I am genuinely surprised that people think that first post is really creepy.

"These dudes were making fun of my friend and man I wanted to beat the shit out of them" - not creepy.

"These dudes were making fun of my friends and I was really hoping to go all Death Wish IV on their asses and have them beg me not to kill them" - creepy as fuck.

― milo z, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:37 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah milo kind of otm but otoh if that was IT and it was just some weird "I WROTE A HIT PLAY" louis jagger-style overflourishy creative writing exercise then it really wouldn't have garnered such a response.

i'm genuinely surprised that some of you are being so disingenuous about not seeing how any of those posts are creepy at all!

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:40 (seventeen years ago) link

"These dudes were making fun of my friends and I was really hoping to go all Death Wish IV on their asses and have them beg me not to kill them" - creepy as fuck.

Which is why those movies sold so poorly, because no one can relate to them...oh, wait.

― lurker #2421, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:41 (seventeen years ago) link

newsflash: angry white males (aka The Death Wish Audience) be creepy, too. see also: Roger Adultery

― milo z, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Skipping 3146 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.