Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

I guess I haven't been paying attention to theatrical releases in general for the past 18 months but it's still genuinely a little shocking to only just realize that Shang-Chi is being released on the actual day of its release. I knew it was coming sometime this year, had no idea it was coming so soon.

I know the only way to increase the stakes from "Thanos kills half (or all) life in our universe"

tbf, the fundamental flaw in the Avengers series of movies is that Thanos killing half the universe never feels like it actually has very high stakes, which I feel like the franchise is kind of implicitly copping to in the What If episode where it's treated as a joke

the fundamental flaw in the Avengers series of movies is that Thanos killing half the universe never feels like it actually has very high stakes

I buy from the external standpoint of "they were going to figure out a way to get everyone back" but not from a narrative standpoint; the primary thrill of Endgame is the desperation driving the Avengers, first to pull off their insane time-travel plan, then to prevent a time-traveling Thanos from undoing their success, and at the end of the movie most of the Asgardians we know are still dead, plus Tony is dead, plus Steve actively chooses himself over his duty or his friends for the first time in the entire series and takes himself out of the team's leadership role and the other person who led the team, Black Widow, is also dead. You still have this group of powerful heroes but all of their recognized leaders are gone and we still don't know who exactly is helming them now; is it Sam? Is it Carol? Is it Rhodey? I'm assuming that is a main narrative driver for the team in Phase 4 as they introduce new characters and elevate secondary ones, like Wanda and Bucky.

The Doctor Strange episode of What If was so good, so trippy. My favorite so far.

Yeah, the Thanos thing did indeed end with three of the MCU's A-list anchors gone for (more or less) good, so that's not nothing.

xp - Agree! Lots of crazy mystic intergalactic creature design.

the fundamental flaw in the Avengers series of movies is that Thanos killing half the universe never feels like it actually has very high stakes

I buy from the external standpoint of "they were going to figure out a way to get everyone back" but not from a narrative standpoint; the primary thrill of Endgame is the desperation driving the Avengers, first to pull off their insane time-travel plan, then to prevent a time-traveling Thanos from undoing their success, and at the end of the movie(...)

I personally think that the stakes were too high and were not resolved in way that left me satisfied.
I mean: I quite adore the MCU but the one thing that I've minded ever since first seeing Endgame is the fact at the end that the five years which had passed since the 'snap' were not undone, which would mean that the universe is not only a gigantic logistic mess afterwards, but also with terribly sad emotional consequences, such as parents having missed out on five years of their children's development or people in relationships having moved on to new partners.
So far, they've managed to carry the mess well enough. Spider-Man: Far From Home addressed some of it at the start in a funnier & better way than I had expected. Falcon & the Winter Soldier went into it fairly well too with the whole idea of the Flag Smashers. But I think it will mostly be treated as a source for jokes or maybe some more plot points, but always remain a mess, and in essence a sombre one at that.

Hulk explained the rules in Endgame which meant that the science of the plot was about as good as it could get; it was made clear that everything that had happened would remain as actual history. I would have strongly preferred it if the Infinity Gems had simply been powerful enough to overrule the rules of time, space and reality and they could have enforced a reset to the moment of the snap.
That might have meant for lesser consequences of the climax of a 22-movie series. I wouldn't have minded.

Who do we actually have confirmed in Phase 4 so far?

Samtain America
Bucky
Ant Man
Dr Strange
Thor
Hulk
The Guardians sans Gamora + Nebula
Wanda (as antagonist?)
Shang Chi
Hawkeye? Ronin? Maybe he’ll do a turn as Goliath at some point?
Wasp
Captain Marvel
Spider-Man

Possible TV crossovers:
Spectrum
Variant Lokis
Wiccan?
Speed?
Kate Bishop?
She-Hulk?

I guess War Machine and some number of Wakandans also should be listed there, too

Ms Marvel (in the Captain Marvel sequel, and her own show)
Blade
Moon Knight maybe?

Both Gamora and Nebula are in the third Guardians film, according to IMDb

In theory white Vision?

I was splitting the hair of this iteration of Gamora not actually being a Guardian in that list but it's more accurate to include her

I guess War Machine and some number of Wakandans also should be listed there, too

― a gentle push against my Wonder Bread face (DJP), Friday, September 3, 2021 10:37 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

In case you missed the news in the flood of show announcements, Okoye is getting her own Disney+ show. And it sounds like Ironheart is gonna be introduced in the next BP movie ahead of her own Disney+ show so I expect Wakanda to be pushed more to the forefront.

Disappointed to learn just now that the upcoming Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur show is animated so I guess they won't wind up being officially incorporated into the roster.

Oh, and in case anyone missed the confirmation of what many suspected

https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/17/45/1510257115-black-panther-new-poster.jpg

lol, never mind the old-ass poster. Letitia Wright just signed a massive multi-picture deal so it's all but confirmed.

lol I was going to say, yeah I think it's safe to say that Letitia Wright is in the first Black Panther flick

I suspected as much but I didn't want to be overly-presumptuous.

is anyone going to see this new movie? feels like it was unwise to release this to theaters only right now.

Nope, gonna have to wait the 45 days until it comes to Disney+. My son was disappointed we have to wait, seeing as how close this came out to his birthday, but not ready to take him, unvaxxed, in a crowded theater (nor does he really want to, he just was hoping it would have been handled like Black Widow).

I'm going, probably Sunday if the day job doesn't get in the way. Maybe tomorrow.

Going back to at least like Iron Man 3, I'd previously seen every MCU on opening weekend. Won't be seeing either of the last two until next month on D+.

And I agree that it's unwise for them to be releasing this the way they're releasing it. I might even say outright stupid.

My guess is a reaction to ScarJo's suit? They have to make good on the "in theaters only" exclusive thing?

Obviously I have no idea what it might mean from a legal standpoint, or what they are contractually obligated to do, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the "Premier Access on D+" kick in after just a few weeks if this underperforms.

I think I read it's going to standard Disney+ sometime in October, just after Black Widow does likewise.

I spent way too much time going "how would her costume affect the way they release these movies, that makes no sense"

xpost - Right, that's the current plan. I'm just wondering it this underperforms they might say, "screw it, let's see if we can milk some more cash out of the Premier Access thing until it hits the free tier". I mean, I know we can't be the only family that would willingly plop down the $20 to watch it sooner but won't go to a theater now.

lol DJP

"i mean sure it's a racist backstory but we're pretending that doesn't exist anymore WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US HERE"
https://screenrant.com/shang-chi-marvel-china-release-movie-backlash-explained/

i'm guessing the real reason is more related to chloe zhao tbh

Why? I'm assuming that would be the case for Eternals, but not sure why it would impact the Shang-Chi plans.

china being an 800 pound gorilla to marvel studios in general is my thinking?

anyway, if you care (spoilers obviously):
https://www.vulture.com/2021/09/shang-chi-legend-of-the-ten-rings-post-credit-scenes-explained.html

I don’t know what it’s like elsewhere but cinemas in London have not been crowded, or anywhere close to it, since before the pandemic. Even for opening weekends of big blockbusters.

i hope marvel takes advantage of the irony of letitia playing a scientist

“what you’re saying is completely unscientific!”
“i just want you to think for yourself..”

How is the fight/stunt choreography in the new one?

Will know tomorrow.

TEN-RINGS TONY - the good!
Combat scenes in the early stages are quite coherent by Marvel standards.
TONY LEUNG!
MICHELLE YEOH!
Fight scene between Leung & Fala Chen is unusually erotic by Marvel standards thanks to Leung’s micro-expressions; getting his ass kicked is a turn-on!

— Anne Billson (@AnneBillson) September 4, 2021

TEN-RINGS TONY - the not so good!
Directing is opposite of fleet-footed; should have channeled Tsui Hark/Lau Kar-leung.
Usual dreary Marvel father issues/dead mother woes. Yawn.
Third act degenerates into the usual Marvel CGI sound & fury n’importe quoi where you cease to care.

— Anne Billson (@AnneBillson) September 4, 2021

Looks like it's a big hit.

I generally find Marvel combat scenes quite coherent by modern franchise blockbuster standards.

Yeah, I think they've been okay on coherence since the (terrible) end of the first Avengers movie. The fight scenes at the end of Black Panther, GOTG1, WandaVision etc. are definitely coherent! They're just a bit shit compared to what came before.

Reviews seem uniform in saying the Shang Chi movie doesn't rely on lazy Asian stereotypes, which is really hard to believe given the trailer, but if it's so it's so

Most of the movie bends over backwards to skewer lazy Asian stereotypes

anything otherwise would be profoundly stupid given the importance of chinese audiences for these movies

and for other reasons too obv!

Fighting was good, probably the best we've seen in the MCU. Tony Leung was fantastic particularly. Movie overall was just solid, not top tier Marvel. I'd place it a notch over Black Widow. Had to be happy just to see every Asian and Asian-American on-screen, honestly.

Made the effort to contribute to this weekend's opening box office, as afraid as I was of the pandemic. Went to a very late showing last night with like six other people in the theater.

The third episode of What If…? was ridiculous in leaning on the grimness

I felt like it would have been more in the spirit of What If for Nick Fury to put on the Iron Man armor. Its whole thing is "things are different but somehow end up being kind of the same."

Also suffered from the fact that a What If is supposed to start by DEPICTING the alteration that changes history downstream, which this one, for obvious reasons, doesn't.

I may be too uptight about what counts as What If.

On Shang-Chi -- the last big fight was disappointing IMO, overcrowded and color graded down to a murky dusk for a scene that took place at dawn, but the bus and scaffold scenes were amazing. The fewer the characters, the better the fight in this case. Good performances -- Liu and Awkwafina have a great BFF vibe and omg is Liu great to look at or what. The elements shoehorning Shang-Chi into the MCU feel forced, but the elements shoehorning him into the Marvel print universe in the 1970s/80s felt forced too*, so I'm kind of okay with that. It's a very good MCU entry. Maybe not top tier? Requires further consideration.

(*Except for the Man-Thing issue, which I've always loved.)

The fewer the characters, the better the fight in this case.

I think this is actually almost always true throughout MCU

There are a couple of big free-for-alls I like in earlier movies, but mostly yeah.