Rolling Jazz Thread 2021

I don't think it's a binary. On the one hand, I don't think you'll find a worthwhile jazz musician who hasn't deeply immersed themselves in the history of the form. On the other, I think that there's a spectrum between jazz being totally academized & institutionalized, versus being a living form linked to local and/or popular culture.

Obviously the long trend for decades has been to the institutionalized end of the spectrum, but there are still some promising elements on the other end (the way hip-hop/beat music, gospel music, etc have changed the feel & vocabulary, also New Orleans has always been it's own thing, etc).

I think discounting standards and tradition is dumb, there are only positives to studying them. But there are probably ways to teach them that are overly didactic and not constructive. In Richard Davis's classes, he would never point to a specific jazz recording of a standard -- he would always have us find an original non-jazz vocal recording when possible. I think he was trying to create the same environment that made those songs become standards in the first place -- learn the lyrics, learn what the song is saying emotionally, then create an arrangement and improvise on it. And once you do that, of course you'll be curious what master musicians did with it too.

And I also think that "learning the tradition" can be taken too far or used as a cudgel, it shouldn't be "you need to learn all of this before you can think about having your own voice", because that's stifling. Even if it does take many years to absorb everything and come out with something interesting, encouraging people to learn and to exercise their own creativity should go hand in hand imo.

cool, helpful addition.

Sorry, guess I can't seem to muster the condescension you've whipped up today.

I was enjoying reading the back and forth and was genuinely curious to hear what your metal drumming friend had to say, but I guess it's more fun to obliquely dunk on someone.

So you think I started that?
HAHAHAHAHAH
oh forget it

He had more to say, quite a bit, but I feel kind of weird cut and pasting his texts, maybe I will summarize but have to go out of signal for a while.

Great post, Jordan! It took every ounce of Iron Man Willpower not to post before you arrived "Jordan studied with Richard Davis and sang scales into his answering machine, do you think Richard Davis is an academic hack?"

Whatever, another potentially interesting ILM conversation derailed by oblique swipes and dismissiveness.

I only suggested dropping acid and listening to Ascension cause it sounds like a good time.

Is it actuallly derailed? I'd like to think I contributed some positive content earlier to this thread, but maybe you didn't read, and others have contineued to do so. If you noticed, I tried to be polite to unperson but it offended his Bad Boy Persona so it was a waste of time.

Btw just personally I think that going to school for jazz in 2021 is a probably a poor life decision, unless 1) you want to be a professor, or 2) you're already good enough to be a professional musician and want to study with a master who teaches at one of these programs.

Among today's top working jazz musicians, I'd be curious what the mix is of those who went to music school vs those who didn't. Also would be interesting to compare with the UK/London.

I didn't mean to attack anyone who liked Armstrong, Coltrane, Yardbirds or whatever, merely the idea that a "tru jazz fan" has to immerse themselves in an historical curriculum that may not be to their taste. Not every listener has to be an historian.

We're talking about people who are training to be musicians at a professional level, though, not people who are collecting records.

Right, I was just reminded of my old post by unperson's Beatles/death metal comment.

I tried to be polite to unperson but it offended his Bad Boy Persona so it was a waste of time

Who was offended? I laughed at your idea that jazz education isn't about gatekeeping, because...it is to laugh. I'll re-post what I said above:

>>Jazz education is 100% about gatekeeping. Come to Juilliard/Berklee/NEC/The New School and get your master's in...jazz education! So you can teach the next generation how to teach jazz, just like it's been taught for fifty years. Count how many ads in DownBeat (a magazine I write for, btw) are for music schools/programs or instrument manufacturers. Read their annual issue promoting jazz education programs like they're fucking US News & World Report. It's an industry, obsessed with self-preservation and refusing to admit its own impending extinction, just like virtually every other branch of academia. And it's not about advancing music at all; it's about keeping musicians of a certain pedigree employed as professors, and preserving "the tradition."

My position re standards is more or less this: Get rid of 'em. Stop playing them, stop recording them, or accept that doing so marks you as a fundamentally uncreative musician who should be playing in hotel lobbies or restaurants. (Before you bring it up, yes, I like Anthony Braxton's new box set of standards. But Braxton has battled jazz's gatekeepers long enough and hard enough that he can play any fucking thing he wants. Similarly, Matt Shipp has probably recorded "Autumn Leaves" a half dozen times, but he's earned the right to plug it into a set of his own music.)

On the question of "learn chords and scales" or "learn old songs that use particular combinations of chords and scales" I am 100% in the former camp. When teaching said chords and scales, I am perfectly OK with professors saying, "Here are three examples of composers using these chords and scales in songs," and playing recordings of, I don't know, "All the Things You Are," "Stella By Starlight," and "The Very Thought of You." Pick other examples if you like. But the very next thing the professor should say is, "Now take those chords and scales and write your own piece of music. Have it ready for the next class."

There are a whole bunch of social and business reasons why and how standards became standards, but they're never taken into account anymore. They're just "the repertoire," and it's ridiculous.

Unperson, I don't think that binary is what you think it is. It's not "originals vs standards".

I'm a theory baby, but I think Iverson is saying that learning which scales go over which chords is an oversimplification, and that learning from recordings reveals relationships between the two that are deeper and more creative. James or someone please elaborate or correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think anyone is against learning chords and scales - learning chordscales, which is what Iverson is commenting on, is a particular way of using them - the idea that you should think of playing over F# m7b5 - B7b5 - Em7 in terms of playing a Locrian #2 scale over the first chord, a Phrygian dominant scale over the second, and the Aeolian mode over the third, as opposed to e.g. thinking about the whole thing in terms of an E minor key area with emphasis on chord members and focusing more on melodic motion driven by tendency tones (and maybe just playing E blues material on the repeat). xp

Last two posts OTM.

Another Iron Sraw Man: that *these musicians* only play standards and don't write their own, more modern, stuff.

I was keeping it like a secret but before Sund4r's last post I was thinking that two great ways to improvise that are open to everyone and extremely beneficial are (a) a more melodic approach, for instance playing the actual melody of the tune and trying to find ways to improvise based on it (Is this Lee Konitz's Level 0 or 1?) and (b) playing more bluesy stuff when possible.

Locrian #2 scale over the first chord

My friend was highly in favor of education. I asked him
"But doesn’t that crush your creative spirit!!?!?!" which is when he replied "Hahahahahahahahah"
He then went on to say love of music should drive one to educate and learn more, it's a never ending quest for knowledge, why stop yourself from learning more. In rare cases the untutored genius may exist but in reality it is better to get an education, ending with: "How many Jim Morrison’s are out there? Plus … he’s dead"

Also I was going to ask Ben Monder himself, but his gig is cancelled for tonight, so I asked his bandmate who said:
"learning standards is one of the best things you can do.
in my opinion developing your own sound/style comes from a process of assimilation rather than a conscious effort to ‘be different’."

Based on disc 1 of Day After Day, I don't think Monder wants to burn the standards.

Also, unperson, did it ever occur to that maybe these interviewees are humoring you since you obviously don't seem to me much about these kind of nuts and bolts of how music is made and are more about *attitude*?

you obviously don't seem to me much about these kind of nuts and bolts of how music is made

I don't play an instrument at a professional level, or read music, but I have a degree in audio engineering. I know more than some of them about "nuts and bolts of how music is made" if we're approaching it from the technical side. So take your "attitude" and hang it in your ass, you blinkered fuck.

*goes back to drafting book proposal about avant-garde jazz composition*

What instrument do you play? What scales do you play in it? Boring two thousand year old scales or scales of your own devising?

So take your "attitude" and hang it in your ass, you blinkered fuck.

What instrument do you play?

I play trumpet, a little. But I don't know any songs.

Probably for the best. A recognize melody would probably cramp your style.

Aw c'mon guys. :(

Obv it's not necessary to be a great musician in order to be a critic or opine about music on the internet, but equally obvious is that audio engineering is not the same thing as making music (separate art forms imo). I'm trying to get better at both.

I'm the midpoint here as a drummer, lol. Like I've had many years of experience dealing with jazz and have gotten to play with some very heavy musicians, but also have had the luxury of not having to deal with the nuts & bolts of jazz theory on more than a basic and, well, theoretical level. I feel like I can have an informed opinion on matters of rhythm, feel, form, culture, etc...but if I said I knew how jazz students should best learn to improvise, I would be fronting.

I will swear off the zingers for a bit, at least until I can submit them without typos;)

Anyway, good post.

Waiting for man alive to come tell us about
https://jazztimes.com/features/profiles/ted-dunbar-taught-nile-rodgers-kevin-eubanks/

Which I will counter with
https://www.museumofthegulfcoast.org/jimmy-wyble

Also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rui0hzN-EFE

Oh wait, sorry.

Here is the famous study mixtape set list from man alive’s former teacher.

Jazz guitar is kind of a notoriously persnickety practice so people tend to gravitate towards certain teachers. Assuming they feel they want or need a teacher.

It still brings a smile to my face that two of the most beloved guitar teachers of all, the two guys I just linked to, come from the same small city, Port Arthur, TX.

Spent a lesson on "It Never Entered My Mind" tonight in honour of this thread.

good one!

It’s late, as Ricky Nelson said, but the idea that all these Jazz Educators are fakers is kind of, what is the word- misguided, offbase, offensive, slightly sickening- thinking of people like Harold Mabern and Jimmy Heath who took that shit seriously, not to get on my high horse.

Ah, I didn’t need to post that, whatever.

Never actually listened to the Julie London/Barney Kessel recording before. It's actually really nice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYHoJb8kduM

Cool? Have you ever heard the Barney Kessel recording mentioned here?
https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2016/09/08/sounds-of-spock-gerald-fried-barney-kessel/

Did you know about Julie London’s husband and his compositions?

Haha, no, the link doesn't seem to work. I suppose I could hear it by watching some of those episodes? xp and no; Bobby Troup?

Sorry, there used to be youtube with the recording, but couldn’t find it, only a cover version(!)

Yes. He was some kind of jazz pianist. Most famous composition was “Route 66” and then maybe “The Girl Can’t Help It” although I seem to hear “Hungry Man” a lot.

Guy who is a great player, teachs at Queens College and wrote some great books on jazz practice and harmony, David Berkman, is livestreaming from Mezzrow right now.

On the other hand, Chico Pinheiro is playing with Ari Hoenig and Edu Bello at Terraza 7. They are streaming a little bit of it for those who cannot attend in person.