Rolling Jazz Thread 2021

I never listened to the albums with Evans tbh. Are they any good?

I like them, but I was more of a fan of his than a fan of theirs to begin with. I only ever heard one of the Iverson albums, and that was a review assignment.

I agree that it's not really the band anymore, but also get the reality that this is their living, and it's tied to what they've built on that name. And I'm a lot more interested in hearing this version of the band than with another pianist, which just begs to be compared to the original trio. It'll be more fun to hear revolving versions of the Bad Plus than no Bad Plus at all (I'm down for that quartet version of 'Big Eater', that'll always be one of my faves).

I'm just concerned that Iverson could start a new Bad Plus piano trio and go on tour. Then this group would have to become Anderson King Monder Speed.

Heh, 'Ethan Iverson Plays the Music of the Bad Plus' would be pretty brutal, unless he was playing solo (which he would be perfectly within his rights to do, although it would seem a little sad). I have a harder time imagining TBP without Dave King than anyone else.

Revisiting every Miles Davis live tape from 1969 to 1975 in chronological order.
Yes, there are links.
https://theheatwarps.com/

for instance:
Miles made two visits to London’s Rainbow Theater in the latter half of 1973, both of which were documented by the band themselves using an on-stage tape recorder. Likely intended for more of a post-show critique session than any sort of official release, the tapes offer a distinctly different listening experience than our typical audience recording – the sound has an almost 3-dimensional quality, allowing you to place each instrument in the stereo field for pure sonic immersion.

And I seem to recall, from some interview, that Pete Cosey mentioned having recorded a bunch of his own tapes---maybe some of those are in here too; I haven't gotten very far.

I mentioned a couple of related things upthread, the first re my sometimes-frustrated take on Second Quintet, esp. re Shorter x Hancock:
I played one of those Legal-in-Italy CDs (from before Media Lord Berlusconi became PM), Double Image(Moon, 1989), live in Paris, 1969, and here Shorter's effective enough, switching back and forth from tenor to soprano, rattling along between Miles and Chick Corea, with Dave Holland and Tony Williams providing subway momentum...
Also:
Another formerly Legal-In-Italy set, Two Miles Live (Discarios, 19??), live in Vienna 11-05-71---boot sites usually say: Wiener Konzerthaus, Vienna (Austria)
Österreischer Rundfunk radio broadcast (B+)

Miles Davis (tpt); Gary Bartz (ss, as); Keith Jarrett (el-p, org); Michael Henderson (el-b); Ndugu Leon Chancler (d); Charles Don Alias (cga, perc); James Mtume Forman (cga, perc)
Yeah, The Lost Septet, never as a full line-up, in the studio at the same time, apparently. Here. Miles draws dry ice and other smoke from the fractive frictions of wah-wah, Echoplex, pitch controls, whatevs, revealing passing patterns, aural indentations, on the inner surfaces of his glass headpiece, also for instance Jarrett's organ sustains metallic sheets which his electric piano hand taps more patterns into, while Gary B's alto and soprano go for microtones from the slaugherhaus, Henderson's bass is bruise as much as blues, drums are all around the town, in a supportive way---Disc One has a *bit* more variety, segmentation; Disc 2 grabs me by the back of neck right off and don't let go.

― dow, Thursday, March 4, 2021 6:05 PM (five months ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO9tjkE-F5w

Just noticed Pi Records releases are now on Spotify.

Ethan Iverson
@ethan_iverson
·
8h
take away chord scales from jazz education and replace them with repertoire
Quote Tweet
Matt
@tiredgenerally
· Aug 22
What’s your most insane belief? Like something you *actually* support but that most people, including those inside your political circle, would find ridiculous
show this thread

Yeah, because jazz is 100 songs written between the 1920s and the 1960s. Ethan's a nice guy, but he's worse than Wynton in some ways.

Haha, I posted that to the theory thread.

There's definitely a debate to be had but "educators should spend more time on studying the repertoire and less on chordscale theory" does not add up to "jazz is 100 songs written between the 1920s and the 1960s" imo.

I don't know which is "the theory thread," but here's his follow-up:

By repertoire I mean dozens of standards played by Bird, Miles, and Trane, plus dozens of jazz compositions by Duke, Bird, Diz, Monk, Golson, Silver, Trane, [Joe Henderson] etc. Approx. 1940 through '65. The center of the mosaic.

I took it to mean that a strong sense of context should come before scales (have occasionally also seen teachers quoted as claiming that they have students learn the words first)

Although these are students who had to audition for the class, so it's a given that they have a certain level of proficiency, know some scales etc.

This is the theory thread: Rolling Music Theory Thread

He's expanded on the idea earlier here: https://ethaniverson.com/received-wisdom-jeff-goldblum-chord-scales-the-ireal-book-and-kamasi-washington/

Others with a deeper jazz bkgd can correct me but basically, chordscale theory is a specific way of teaching jazz improv based on the idea that you play certain scales over certain types of chords - it's largely meant to help people learn to play in an inside style to begin with (e.g. it is often commonly taught with those same standards) but Iverson's point is that it doesn't actually reflect the thought process of great jazz players, nor does it really get at the sound of the style it is meant to teach. His point is that analysing and studying the actual recorded material - which I think people do as well but the balance is wrong in his view - is a better way for students to learn the fundamentals of jazz improv than learning in the abstract to play the Mixolydian mode over V7 in a major key but Phrygian dominant over V7 in a minor key, etc., which is largely meant to help people play in a traditional style anyway. (Thinking that students should study the actual chorale harmonizations Bach wrote instead of learning a quasi-algorithmic set of rules for harmonization doesn't necessarily mean that one thinks that music should not progress beyond the style of Bach.) If your point is that people should be studying more modern repertoire, that's not really a defence of CST. I have a pretty strongly modern bias myself, and am far from an expert on the core repertoire he refers to, but I understand why jazz degree programmes teach "Autumn Leaves" before Ben Monder's "Echolalia". (I certainly do.)xps

Some stuff got restated in a couple of ways before I remembered to delete but the idea's there. i.e. I think the point is I should transcribe and study Joe Pass's version of "Autumn Leaves" instead of practising A Dorian - D mixolydian - G major - F# Locrian #2 - B Phrygian dominant - E Aeolian. (Something to be said for it but I also feel like CST can be useful as a way to get started.) I did try to check my knowledge of repertoire when I read the tweet by trying to sing "Blue Bossa" in the original key on the spot. My wife was trying to listen to something important and gave me an annoyed look. I did start transcribing Kenny Burrell's solo (not in the original key) afterwards so at least a half hour or so of practice came out of it.

Here’s a thread:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/19046-jazz-theory-resources-bert-ligon-vs-jazzology-robert-rawlins.html
which links to an article:
https://mtosmt.org/issues/mto.00.6.1/mto.00.6.1.rawlins.html
Feel like I must have linked both on the other thread.

I mean, Iverson did this. He's emphatically not a Marsalis/Crouch-style traditionalist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHllxIfP2BE

Is that the “Maps” that…? I guess so.

Lots of guys who are far from hidebound moldy figs think that learning standards is important iirc.

Every jazz student should drop acid and listen to Ascension.

Lots of guys who are far from don't think of themselves as hidebound moldy figs think that learning standards is important iirc.

"Learn every Beatles song. Then you can start your little 'death metal band.'"

You know who loves keeping standards around? Record labels and music publishing companies. Fuck standards. Ban 'em all for 20 years, like a controlled burning of a forest, and see what sprouts in their place.

Look man, I appreciate the valuable work you do journalistically, but I am talking about modern players, not some bogeyman of your choosing. Also the subject Sund4r brought up was Jazz Education, not Who Gets To Be The Gatekeeper Of What Music Is Heard, which is a whole different thing.

You know who you sound like? The Big Mother himself.

*cue wacky xylophone solo*

Also the subject Sund4r brought up was Jazz Education, not Who Gets To Be The Gatekeeper Of What Music Is Heard, which is a whole different thing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It was the subject Iverson brought up tbf.

Wait, Iverson is posting on this thread?

What’s so funny, what’s your point? You think there is no such thing as Jazz Education because We’re A Garage Band? You think that all the people who teach Jazz at Queens College or UNT or all the multitude of other places or teach privately (Sund4r? But I don’t want to speak for him) are just lackeys of Wynton and the Recording Industry, such as it is)

Interested to hear what Jordan or man alive would say.

Anyway, I would like you to add some nterview questions to every one you conduct going forward, so you can do some real investigate journalism: Do you teach? Are you affiliated with an institution? Do you teach standards?

Or even: have you learned any standards? Did you find it useful?

What’s so funny, what’s your point?

Jazz education is 100% about gatekeeping. Come to Juilliard/Berklee/NEC/The New School and get your master's in...jazz education! So you can teach the next generation how to teach jazz, just like it's been taught for fifty years. Count how many ads in DownBeat (a magazine I write for, btw) are for music schools/programs or instrument manufacturers. Read their annual issue promoting jazz education programs like they're fucking US News & World Report. It's an industry, obsessed with self-preservation and refusing to admit its own impending extinction, just like virtually every other branch of academia. And it's not about advancing music at all; it's about keeping musicians of a certain pedigree employed as professors, and preserving "the tradition."

Anyway, I would like you to add some interview questions to every one you conduct going forward, so you can do some real investigate journalism: Do you teach? Are you affiliated with an institution? Do you teach standards?

I ask about that stuff fairly often already. Back in 1997, in one of the first interviews I ever did, I asked Charlie Haden about teaching at Cal Arts. He told me he didn't teach harmony or theory or anything else, that his students could get that in their other classes. He taught improvisation, and he said, "I teach them to look at the stars."

Typos, sorry, no one proofreads anymore.

Did you ask Charlie a follow-up question about what they improvise over?

Constellations obv

i was in jazz band in high school, it was fun and i learned a lot

Why didn’t you just play in a metal band like you really wanted to and eliminate the middle man?

You know, the mythical "jazz student who only practices standards" and their classmate "jazz student who only practices chordscales" probably have a similar repertoire and sound the same to most listeners.

Also, freaking out and making your own "Ascension" is, 56 years later, possibly as well-travelled and corny an option as playing "Caravan" with a drum solo.

I made a related point to what unperson is saying (from the point-of-view of a listener/reader) in my first post on this board:

"I also wonder why some jazz fans/historians/critics feel that if you like one strand of this music, you ought to enjoy listening to old records that have nothing in common with your taste. Is it because this one hundred years of music is all still called 'jazz'? I mean, how would extreme metal fans respond to someone shoving Chuck Berry or Yardbirds records at them, because it's all 'rock'?"

I usually like your posts but that is…not such a great point.

It's just that the "canon" seems to weigh so much heavier in jazz discourse.

For one thing, I would bet on Only Standards guy over Only CST guy. For another, I think people in general should try to listen to older styles if they can. For a third I like how everything depends on the Metal Straw Iron Man logical turn.

It's just that the "canon" seems to weigh so much heavier in jazz discourse.

freaking out and making your own "Ascension"

you mean the "Ascension" recorded by the formally educated theory nerd John Coltrane along with a cast of many other formally educated jazz musicians?

I mean, feel free to put the question to the Rolling Metal Thread. As an extreme metal listener, I appreciate having at least some familiarity with Chuck Berry and the Yardbirds.xps

Lol James Redd

Check out the academic and performance background of Daniel Mongrain (current guitarist of Voivod, former member of Gorguts and Cryptopsy, founding member of Martyr, also a jazz/pop guitar prof and session player with blues, folk, and country experience): https://danmongrain.com/en/about

I am asking another friend who is a metal drummer who where he stands on this.

His response?