How (post) punk is post-punk, really?

Vivien Goldman of late 70s early 80s postpunk fame, plus a critic, author and Professor, has a new album Next Is Now

New wave argument upthread is fun because you can continue on the proto/punk/post confusion onward into new wave/synthpop/etc. (and probably infinity) - when I was a kid it was too late for 1980 Blondie or Talking Heads to still be getting radio play but Tears for Fears and Depeche Mode would and the DJs were calling them new wave.

I somehow missed the news about the Vivien Goldman so thanks for that. Enjoying it.

Yea, I enjoy some of it , though am not hearing anything as good as Launderette yet

no, no Private Armies either, but her voice is still as adorable as ever and I will purchase. Substitute remained in my head afterwards.

Have learned that the melodies and lyrics are largely all Vivien Goldman but she let Youth create the tracks and they then collaborated to finalize them.

nobody really knows what's what when the thing's happening. even 'punk' was hardly ever 'punk.' there was the magazine 'punk' and a greasy trashy sort of scene that sort of vaguely accreted to it, and the scene was very arty and art-adjacent from the get go, improvised-ramshackle and yet exquisitely presented. I mean, forget prog, Ramones s/t was the ultimate make-believe concept album of the 70s.

And if you look at the LA scene, the bands playing in Chinatown or at the Masque (Middle Class, X) you can't slice that sucker into punk/post-punk no matter how hard you try. 'Punk' in SoCal really didn't get sonically and aesthetically codified until *after* 'punk', when it shifted away from Hollywood weirdos of all kinds and became a boys-only thing in the suburbs and beach towns, giving us hardcore.