Cuba: Here we go again?

I haven’t said a thing about paid protesters, I’ve said I’m suspicious of the American media narrative and the meaning liberal interventionists have derived from the very possibility of protests and that I don’t believe we can draw meaning from them.

Why would I be suspicious or skeptical at all, as neanderthal has tut-tutted about? We’ve routinely astroturfed protest in states we’re hostile toward. (for instance, in Cuba itself - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/cuban-hip-hop-scene-infiltrated-us-information-youth)

You drew a line between the “actual protesters” (the ones you like) and the counter-protests.

My partner is Cuban (and most definitely non-American! Now living in Scotland, previously in Spain, and in Cuba until she was a teenager, and part of her family, including some she is close to, still live there). She'll never post on ilx though, I'm afraid, and I struggle to express my own views coherently, let alone hers. I've been passing many of the links on though, thanks for those.

Jaruzelski had to do what he had to do, US hands off Poland!

Xyzz, are the protestors CIA plants?

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 19 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

Lol.

That thread ufo linked is a nice enough analysis but it's an analysis. At the end of it:

So whose line will win out? That's a question that becomes especially vexing when you add back in the other actors: the Cuban neoliberals, the Cuban far right, the Miami exiles, and the security services of Cuba and the US.

— JMC 🌹🏴 (@red_dilettante) July 13, 2021

If the old lennists go it's a good chance the people you all care about won't get the chance to decide on anything. But at least lifting the embargo without any interference from white ppl, as well as Cuban Americans who don't live there, is a start. This is the thing that won't happen either, but it would allow for a better chance of survival to those that most need it in the first place.

How hard is it to imagine that one could be critical of the present govt but also wants the embargo lifted and want the Cuban people to determinate their political future without foreign intervention? Like does it actually hurt you to admit people can think outside some either/or narrative presented by political leaders? Or are you just going to continue assuming that Cuban writers and Cuban posters in this thread don’t know or even want what’s best for their nation and family?

President Joe Biden on Thursday plans to slap targeted individual sanctions on Cuba regime officials, bucking the progressive voices in his own party who called for an end to the embargo.

Biden’s response to Cuba — which also includes measures to bring increased internet access to the island and calls for more international pressure on the totalitarian government — was outlined Wednesday night in a call with Democratic Cuban-American activists in Miami who had been calling for more action ever since the July 11 uprisings on the island.

But it’s the proposal to extend the targeted sanctions of the Magnitsky Act, originally passed in response to Russian government oppression and then extended to governments such as Venezuela, that has most encouraged activists who want more pressure on Cuba.

“This is huge,” said Sasha Tirador, a top Miami political operative who was briefed on the plans Wednesday night.

“No administration has ever announced that they will hold each individual who violates human rights on the island of Cuba accountable,” she said.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/22/biden-sanctions-cuba-500534

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond tbh

🇨🇺 Let Cuba Live! Over 400 politicians, intellectuals, clergy, artists, activists & ex-heads of state call Biden to immediately lift Trump's 243 sanctions on Cuba.
Full page ad in the NYT tomorrow @answercoalition @codepink

Visit https://t.co/jQTKHAcwQ1 to sign the petition. pic.twitter.com/4X068AgqzL

— The People's Forum (@PeoplesForumNYC) July 22, 2021

Like does it actually hurt you to admit people can think outside some either/or narrative presented by political leaders? Or are you just going to continue assuming that Cuban writers and Cuban posters in this thread don’t know or even want what’s best for their nation and family?

― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

You can make up as many narratives you like but it isn't about narratives. Do you want the current leadership to go, is the question. What happens then? And who is going to get involved in those decisions? Give what we've seen in Bolivia, Brazil, Venezuela in the last few years.

You've not been shy in talking out of arsehole about any of these countries so don't tell what I can or can't say.

Yes the current leadership has to go. Anyone who considers otherwise cares very little for democracy and human rights.

And who is going to get involved in those decisions?

Cubans? Is it hard to imagine that Cubans would be able to build a democracy if given the chance? And sure some Cubans who are more right wing will be given a larger voice than before but hey, in life it happens that people disagree with you on some matters and despite that they should have a voice too.

By the way, I don’t see a problem with what happened in Bolivia since the people have clearly and democratically elected the leader and party of their choice. Same as Peru. Same as Mexico. Same as Panama. And allow me to remind you that the US does exercise economic and political pressure on these nations too.

But if you think Maduro is the ideal for the future of latin american politics and that he should stay put, you care more about your ideology than actual human lives.

'but hey' if Cuba is turned into a backwater ruthlessly ruled by gusanos and Afro-Cubans get nothing then so what?

Lol liberals and their 'human rights'.

Cuba is a backwater ruthlessly ruled by white authoritarians.

Backwaters don't produce covid vaccines.

Just go there and talk to people.

yeah I suppose that could count as "importation of information" or maybe "professional research"

Been going to classes and practicing yoga for nearly a decade, will start yelling about the benefits of Chakras to troll ppl.

My friend wrote this:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/guest-commentary/os-op-cuba-protests-pay-attention-20210722-53kjtzv2izab5gxe6zagidqany-story.html

Liberal!

Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in your country. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to your market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.

lift the embargo!

By the way, I don’t see a problem with what happened in Bolivia since the people have clearly and democratically elected the leader and party of their choice.

Ok, if Trump had stayed in power citing false claims of voter fraud, and there were massive protests resulting in dozens of people getting killed, and he finally agreed to new elections and left office in 2022, would you say the same thing? (It’s not a perfect analogy, Anez wasn’t even the choice of a sizable minority.)

Trump even developed a vaccine, see

No the whole situation is so vastly different and so any analogy is useless. Especially since Anez made it clear there would be new elections, that she acted in an interim capacity, and that she and her party kept her word on that. Especially since Anez worked in concert with the opposition party to ensure fair and sound elections. Plus you did not mention the abuse of Morales presenting himself for elections despite losing a referendum to allow limitless terms. Plus Anez would have not gotten the role if MAS didn’t just allow her (a qorum would have been enough to stop her ascending, considering MAS had a big majority of seats, but they did not participate). Plus the unions, usually very left leaning, also called for Morales resignation. None of that could be mapped into American politics.

And also, the point remains: Cubans have a right to free and fair elections, untainted from any foreign influence.

xp

Didn't she claim that she wouldn't run in the new elections, then announce her candidacy anyway, repeatedly postpone the elections, and then only end her candidacy to try to defeat the MAS candidate? And yes, Morales's actions were questionable, but he did win the election, and the evidence of widespread fraud turned out to be false. And you didn't say anything about the dozens of people killed.

Regarding MAS "allowing her": The MAS delegation argued that the parliamentary session's first obligation was to elect its own new leaders (including replacing Salvatierra as president of the Senate), prior to replacing Morales.[45] It declared the session and its vote for Áñez's succession illegal.

And who is going to get involved in those decisions?

Cubans? Is it hard to imagine that Cubans would be able to build a democracy if given the chance?

"If given the chance" doing Sisyphean work there. If you believe the US wouldn't interfere (to the detriment of the Cuban people), you most likely also believe in Santa Claus.

If the western hemisphere's imperial hegemon can go five years without sponsoring a right-wing coup, we can start talking about states being "given a chance" at democracy and self-determination.

Because that govt indeed killed people, but I just don’t see how it relates to a hypothetical involving american politics. Also,a year of interim is pretty fast considering the pandemic situation that developped. Also, I don’t remember Anez making such a promise (but I might be wrong!). It remains that in 2020, the Bolivians chose a governement to their liking and that it worked, and I don’t understand why Cubans shouldn’t be allowed the same democratic exercice.

If anything the Bolivian experience should make a pretty good case that latin americans are able to stick to their principles and autonomy despite foreign interference or the existence of right wing politics.

wasbappin's blog never fails to deliver pic.twitter.com/5PDnPMPOID

— pez (@periuspb) July 24, 2021

Let’s keep the dictatorship for another 60 years because we couldn’t possibly risk the greatest threat of all … US influence.

Has this present US administration opposed the elections of Castillo and Cortizo?

I just find it kind of astonishing to say "I don't see a problem" given that there was a year of anti-democratic rule and brutal treatment of protesters, precipitated by a false narrative of a stolen election. I'm glad that the elections happened and that democracy still seems to function there, but I don't really see it as a reason to think that things will be just fine everywhere.

the greatest threat of all … US influence.

You're so close to getting it.

Morales was as much part of the anti-democratic situation as he clearly overstayed his welcome, and it’s no wonder MAS has clearly distanced itself from Morales since.

But yeah now it’s been many decades of anti-democratic rule, brutal treatment of protestors and false narratives for Cubans, but yes sure, it’s that status quo they want instead of … being able to do like Bolivians in reasserting their autonomy.

You're so close to getting it.

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Saturday, July 24, 2021 5:37 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It will forever astonish me that people would choose Tiannemen Square over Lee Teng-hui, East Germany over West Germany, Soviet Estonia over Finland.

The guy who won the democratic election is as much a part of the anti-democratic situation as the unelected president from the party with single-digit support who presided over the deaths of dozens of protesters?

Despite the fact that he should have not been able to present himself in the first place? Yeah. Seems like abuse to me; which is why lots of left leaning group just abandonning him and decided to trust a OAS report with errors over anything and still to this day don’t care much for the dude.

It will forever astonish me that people would choose Tiannemen Square over Lee Teng-hui, East Germany over West Germany, Soviet Estonia over Finland.

Wouldn't a better analogy, one that's in this hemisphere and not eligible for social security be Colombia and Cuba, today?

Alright, so we just need to allow the Cuban people to have their voices heard, but when the Bolivian people vote to give a guy you don't like another term, it's totally fine to ignore their voices and depose him based on false information.

"Let’s keep the dictatorship for another 60 years because we couldn’t possibly risk the greatest threat of all … US influence."

Nobody is saying this. If the US care about Cubans they should lift the sanctions they've kept for decades and leave Cubans and their administration to it.

Wouldn't a better analogy, one that's in this hemisphere and not eligible for social security be Colombia and Cuba, today?

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Saturday, July 24, 2021 6:11 PM (forty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Colombia has a better health care system than both Cuba and the US per the WHO. Colombia’s social expenditure is also pretty good, higher than South Korea and about the same as Ireland. I don’t know what you are talking about.

...

I have no idea what milo z and xyyz want

I don't think it's necessary to want anything, aside from an end to the embargo (and American imperialism). Interventionists like VHS's fantasy of Cuban autonomy after their desired regime change is risible because of the dishonesty.

So now ‘untainted from any foreign influence’ is interventionism?

y'all enjoy going in circles?

cos it makes for really shitting reading

*shitty

So now ‘untainted from any foreign influence’ is interventionism?

No, it's just a fantasy. (Or, more accurately, dishonesty.)

I have no idea what milo z and xyyz want

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD8Cz2HOlEc

Today, we are imposing further sanctions against the Cuban police following their attacks on protestors, including young people, religious leaders, and civil society organizations. We will continue to promote accountability for the Cuban regime’s human rights abuses.

— Secretary Antony Blinken (@SecBlinken) July 30, 2021

https://t.co/3e23O3AiCo pic.twitter.com/HglTVz123p

— by mennen (@ClassHuggle) August 1, 2021

Lmao we're so fucked https://t.co/VqL8BvRvNR

— Lisa and the banned one (@LisaA311) July 31, 2021