along those lines:
https://slate.com/podcasts/a-word/2021/07/race-cuba-afro-cubans-uprising
― class project pat (m bison), Saturday, 17 July 2021 19:10 (two years ago) link
Black Lives Matter But Not In Cuba.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink
Lift the embargo except #itscomplicated
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 17 July 2021 20:06 (two years ago) link
i'm with Alfred, the tweet was misinformed and largely centered the conversation around the US and ignored the protests on the ground in Cuba and seemed to lionize their government.
you can support lifting the embargo and also acknowledge this. these aren't either-or proposals.
― making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Saturday, 17 July 2021 20:09 (two years ago) link
exactly
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 July 2021 20:32 (two years ago) link
Glad we all agree part of the solution for Cuba's future is more trade with capitalist economies.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 17 July 2021 20:39 (two years ago) link
The partial solutions for Cuba's future: lifting the embargo, let the people decide the system under which they wish to live, and read ILX for counsel.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 July 2021 20:41 (two years ago) link
I hope we can all agree that lifting the embargo would be a good thing in general for the people living in Cuba. If or when the Cuban government stands or falls should only become a consideration only after the embargo is gone. Even if you think the Cuban regime is bad and criminal, the fact remains that the embargo hasn't removed it after six decades, so keeping the embargo won't do anything to remove that government; the embargo only inflicts pain and misery on the Cubans to no good end.
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Saturday, 17 July 2021 20:51 (two years ago) link
Regardless of the embargo, some terrible economic decisions have been made and they have been compounded by the pandemic. And at one point I think it's also important to allow Cubans living on the island to parse terrible economic policies + authoritarian injustices from problems stemming from this horrific embargo. Alfred is obviously otm when he says it's not all about America.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:06 (two years ago) link
To be clear, the regime was authoritarian regardless of the embargo.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:10 (two years ago) link
Yes, I meant those are two separate sets of problems.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:14 (two years ago) link
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 17 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink
It's not the gotcha you think it is
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:17 (two years ago) link
I don’t mean to excuse any particular actions of Castro and his successors, but an authoritarian regime is a pretty logical thing to have if the United States is trying to kill your president and overturn your government. How long would a left-liberal government that implemented radical land reforms and redistribution have lasted? Would the regime that followed be democratic, or non-repressive?
― JoeStork, Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:29 (two years ago) link
You're right. The embargo has been as much a propaganda triumph for the Castros and successors as for the Cuban AM radio commentariat. It still doesn't justify labor camps, etc.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:45 (two years ago) link
Sure, there are reasons why the revolutionary Cuban government became so authoritarian. The same was true of the USSR. It's hard to argue that the Russian Federation is objectively better or worse for its people than the USSR was, but at least the present US sanctions against the Russian Federation are better targeted and less harmful than the Cuban embargo. Getting rid of the embargo is a no-brainer, imo.
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:49 (two years ago) link
Russia has taken almost 30 years to get life expectancy back to USSR levels so on one (rather important) measure it's pretty easy to argue it's been worse.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Saturday, 17 July 2021 21:58 (two years ago) link
No one with the slightest bit of compassion wants Cuba to become an illiberal oligarchy state like Russia, and the spectrum of the possibility is much wider than what the USSR and the present Russian Federation presents.
The same way there is no excuses for this embargo, there are basically no excuses for authoritarian regimes.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 17 July 2021 22:17 (two years ago) link
Man, if this is true -
https://www.instagram.com/p/CRYawauDBpS/?fbclid=IwAR0ONtKr7b9xkE23tX47SaSJSzBSOeJtidtFzA_bS2_LGXv6UNmY2EnkxmU
― Legalize Suburban Benches (Raymond Cummings), Saturday, 17 July 2021 23:26 (two years ago) link
Would be nice to have any sources for what he’s saying.
― JoeStork, Sunday, 18 July 2021 00:46 (two years ago) link
kinda distrust anyone who needs to emphasize that this definitely has nothing to do with the embargo.
― JoeStork, Sunday, 18 July 2021 01:08 (two years ago) link
The embargo has existed for a very long time and doesn’t explain the hyperinflation problem Cuba is facing at the moment.
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 18 July 2021 01:16 (two years ago) link
Didn’t Trump recently put new sanctions in place though?
― JoeStork, Sunday, 18 July 2021 01:21 (two years ago) link
US inflation is above 5% - global shortages are going to impact Cuba much harder thanks to the embargo.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Sunday, 18 July 2021 01:30 (two years ago) link
It would help if the govt knew how to deal with a currency, especialy in a world in which tourism has died out.
Heck, Miguel Diaz himself is acknowleding Cuba’s role in the hardships.
So yeah, sure, end the embargo, it sucks, but not everything is about the US, other countries have enough agency to take shitty decision on their own too.
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 18 July 2021 01:41 (two years ago) link
Yes but most other countries haven’t had the most powerful country on earth working to limit their agency for 60 years. Anyway I just have to take with a grain of salt a report on what it’s really like in Cuba that comes from a former investment banker who has never lived there and insists that the embargo has nothing to do with the problems there.
― JoeStork, Sunday, 18 July 2021 02:09 (two years ago) link
To be fair, trusting ‘a former investment banker’ never seems to be a good idea.
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 18 July 2021 02:12 (two years ago) link
Btw if anyone knows of good sources on the situation in Cuba that are somewhere in between “the poor oppressed people just want freedom in the form of US airstrikes” and “gusano scum get the wall” I’d appreciate it!
― JoeStork, Sunday, 18 July 2021 02:18 (two years ago) link
Al-Jazeera has been balanced imo
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 18 July 2021 02:38 (two years ago) link
I did notice the gentleman in the link provided by Raymond thought it was an especially telling indictment of Cuba that uneducated people made the same daily wage as educated people.
In a nation that is fated to be poor, both by its lack of resources and by the embargo, the fact that the burden of such poverty is mostly equally shared is no indictment. There clearly are ways in which the powerful can get around this, but it's still FAR more equality of means than in any capitalist nation.
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Sunday, 18 July 2021 03:53 (two years ago) link
Lack of resources does not fate a nation to poverty, there are many counter examples. Plus Cuba is a large island with fertile soil with access to the sea, agriculture should not be a problem, except it is because command economies keep failing at it, regardless of the region or era.
It's like its impossible to acknowledge that a shitty dictatorial govt that jail dissidents and can't keep currency issues at bay has had a hand in Cuba's poverty.
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 18 July 2021 04:06 (two years ago) link
Naive to think it's resources would've been shared with the poor had it kept being a capitalist country instead of a command economy.
We don't know what the lifting of the embargo would've done for its economy.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 18 July 2021 08:36 (two years ago) link
To understand what's really going on in Cuba right now -- the massive protests across the country -- you have to grasp three things:(1.) The Leninist government's years-long crisis of legitimacy;(2.) the causes of recent hyper-inflation;(3.) the mixed politics of dissidents— JMC 🌹🏴 (@red_dilettante) July 12, 2021
― ufo, Sunday, 18 July 2021 09:19 (two years ago) link
(thread, has sources)
there are some material specifics there for once which is most welcome
of course the US condemning authoritarianism, jailing (/torture/execution) of dissidents, suppression of "democracy" etc is pretty rich considering, you know
― Left, Sunday, 18 July 2021 12:02 (two years ago) link
it's a real problem how rote and programmatic the responses have become for these crises - this is not the same as bolivia which is not the same as venezuela despite some similarities but they might as well be identical judging by how most people in the north talk about them, regardless of their political persuasion. not saying I'm not guilty of this either
― Left, Sunday, 18 July 2021 12:24 (two years ago) link
lol
pic.twitter.com/UXf3UJ592s— Phil Lord #BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate (@philiplord) July 18, 2021
― self-clowning oven (Murgatroid), Sunday, 18 July 2021 15:04 (two years ago) link
Excellent thread, Left. Thanks.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 18 July 2021 15:15 (two years ago) link
otm
― class project pat (m bison), Sunday, 18 July 2021 15:17 (two years ago) link
aren’t you talking about the thread ufo posted?
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Sunday, 18 July 2021 15:20 (two years ago) link
yeah, ufo, sorry
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 18 July 2021 15:20 (two years ago) link
We stand in solidarity with the Cuban people and condemn the suppression of the media, speech and protest. We also call for an end to the U.S. embargo and additional Trump-era restrictions that are profoundly contributing to the suffering of Cubans. pic.twitter.com/Fw6Quv5TAN— Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@RepAOC) July 16, 2021
― making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Sunday, 18 July 2021 15:41 (two years ago) link
^ an unexceptionable statement that sits astride the middle ground, but which the right will call a radical threat to mom, apple pie and baseball
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Sunday, 18 July 2021 17:41 (two years ago) link
AOC is getting a taste for the bomb.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 18 July 2021 17:47 (two years ago) link
how did you derive that?
― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Sunday, 18 July 2021 17:59 (two years ago) link
By posting a contrary opinion to xyz of course
― making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Sunday, 18 July 2021 18:16 (two years ago) link
Also Canada should do much much more wrt to vaccination in Cuba, considering it has normal trade relations.
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 18 July 2021 18:39 (two years ago) link
https://truthout.org/articles/my-heart-aches-for-cuba-and-i-yearn-for-more-solidarity-from-the-global-left/
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 18 July 2021 20:42 (two years ago) link
"Cuba’s Abdala and Soberana, the first COVID vaccines developed in Latin America, weren’t invented, fabricated and administered by the bureaucrats in the “Palace.” The Cuban people, those that took the streets to change their lives and were repressed by the government, are the ultimate generators of Cuban wealth."
Nonsense. Without the revolution no vaccine would've been developed in Cuba.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 18 July 2021 21:10 (two years ago) link
anyone who dares to watch could see the patrolling troops running, threatening unarmed people and beating them
Glad that doesn't happen in liberal democracies.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Sunday, 18 July 2021 21:22 (two years ago) link
Always love it when Brits take lead on the Convo about what's best for the Cubans. Granted it's not much diff than Americans doing the same. Be nice to hear from...idk...Cuban-Americans.
Twitter is full of ppl talking down to actual non-Revolution Cubans atm
― making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Sunday, 18 July 2021 21:23 (two years ago) link
*Cubans or Cuban-Americans