The latest revive is this thread’s New Jersey.
― Vin Jawn (PBKR), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 17:43 (two years ago) link
you can’t really use streaming numbers to straight up compare old songs with newer tracks. Spotify wasn’t nearly as prevalent during Perry’s heyday as it is now. YouTube views are a more honest metric (but here also, older songs are negatively impacted by things like changes in official artist accounts - see the relatively low numbers for her first megahits)for example:streaming-wise, a recent hit like “Never Really Over” appears to be in a similar league as older blockbusters like “Dark Horse”, “Roar” and “Firework”: 514M vs 803M, 656M and 551M total streams, respectively.now let’s look at the corresponding YouTube views: “Never Really Over” 142M, decent, you might say, but “Dark Horse” has 3.097M (almost 22x as much), “Roar” 3.380M (almost 24x as much), and even “Firework”, the oldest of this bunch, has 1.317M views in the version currently on YT (9x as much), but actually misses a billion or two (or more), I suspect.the fact that Perry’s top 10 most streamed songs on Spotify is dominated by older hits does tell you another thing tho: that she has m/l become a “heritage” act - for contrast, look at someone like Justin Bieber: his Spotify top 10 is dominated by his current & recent stuff (“Love Yourself” is the oldest track here, the only one from the Purpose era, which in itself is much more recent than most of the big songs in KPs top 10)
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 17:45 (two years ago) link
still, I don’t think KP had a New Jersey - PRISM was a simply a big ol’ flop after two hugely successful albums, and she hasn’t recovered from it since.
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 17:51 (two years ago) link
sorry, biting myself in the ass there. PRISM is the one with “Roar” and “Dark Horse”, follow-up Witness is the one that severely underperformed - but that came as quite a surprise, don’t think most people had already gauged that the gig was up
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 17:58 (two years ago) link
"I don’t think it’s a crazy statement that the biggest global artists of 2010-2012 (Swift, Kanye, Beyonce, Perry) have a lower profile ten years later?"
Not a weird statement at all (though I'd certainly disagree in most cases with your picks), but, important to remember that not all declines in popularity = a New Jersey... which is what we're talking about here.
― mr.raffles, Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:06 (two years ago) link
YouTube views are a more honest metric (but here also, older songs are negatively impacted by things like changes in official artist accounts -see the relatively low numbers for her first megahits)
disagree; the scale of # of youtube users between 2010 and now is massive (hundreds of millions > billions)
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:07 (two years ago) link
Every huge message board has its "New Jersey" - a huge event thread that ultimately feels a bit hollow & signals a career decline
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:07 (two years ago) link
what I said is that it's a fairer means of comparing the popularity of older and newer hits of someone like Katy Perry - where the discrepancy is much smaller on YouTube than on Spotify, as the examples I gave you show
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:11 (two years ago) link
"but that came as quite a surprise, don’t think most people had already gauged that the gig was up"
Is it too early to declare Katy Perry's Prism a New Jersey?
― J. Sam, Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:29 PM (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink
katy perry otm
― i also enjoy in line skateing (spazzmatazz), Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:31 PM (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:28 (two years ago) link
Prism was kind of a bomb: it ultimately only sold 1/4 of what Teenage Dream did, and produced only two #1 singles after everything from the prior set went Top 3.
And then Witness fell off a cliff.
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:34 (two years ago) link
the other problem with streaming is i think Katy Perry has a lot of FB friends and she's msging them each morning to bump her trax but the ~media~ isn't talkin about this
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:37 (two years ago) link
The biggest threads from 2010-2012 have now become heritage threads.
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:38 (two years ago) link
Going back a bit, I had actually started a post about how KP definitely had a shrunken audience and is perhaps now more known for American Idol before I thought to check Spotify only to see that: (A) Her audience is larger than I expected, and (B) It's not (entirely) all about her back catalogue.
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:42 (two years ago) link
You are describing almost to a T the opening post’s definition of an album that qualifies
― an eco-conscious Music Box (DJP), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:44 (two years ago) link
After two decades of this thread we've finally found a second new jersey.
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:49 (two years ago) link
okay, New Jersey it is then, I should have known better than to venture there anyway, just came here to refute, once and data-driven for all, the notion that Katy is somehow still as popular/successful as she was up to and including “Roar”.xp
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:54 (two years ago) link
or “Dark Horse” rather - could have sworn that one came before “Roar”, but it didn’t
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:57 (two years ago) link
Apropos of nothing, but it seems now that one of the truest death rattles of physical media was seeing tons of unsold Witness CDs clogging shelves in the summer of '17.
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 18:57 (two years ago) link
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Tuesday, July 6, 2021 1:11 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
not really arguing with your overall point, just suggesting that even if it is, relative to spotify, a better indicator, it's really not an ideal one.
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 19:05 (two years ago) link
Katy Perry somehow has more Twitter followers than almost anyone mentioned here (except for Bieber)
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 19:27 (two years ago) link
her empire knows no bounds
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 19:28 (two years ago) link
You would think Perry's audience had definitely shrunk, but she's still pulling almost 37 mil. monthly listeners on Spotify
Bon Jovi themselves have over 19M (just under GnR at 20M, well over Poison at 4M), which seems not bad, considering their comparative age.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 19:56 (two years ago) link
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, July 6, 2021 2:28 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
SWISH
― J. Sam, Tuesday, 6 July 2021 21:06 (two years ago) link
Actually that should be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGk5fR-t5AU
― J. Sam, Tuesday, 6 July 2021 21:10 (two years ago) link
Culture II feels like a classic New Jersey at this point
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 6 July 2021 23:02 (two years ago) link
With all the clickfarms, AI bots and payola around streaming/social media it’s getting really hard to asses popularity/cultural relevance with actual humans. Someone with a million followers could have 100k, 10k or 1k real people as fans, nobody knows. Someone with 100M streams on Spotify could have 50M real clicks to play the song by actual people, or could just have paid to have Spotify inject the song 99M times into Discover playlists.
You could fall back to ‘real cash spent’ on tickets & collectibles but that overestimates the popularity of artists that have found a way to extract huge sums out of a small following of old & wealthy superfans vs artists where a billion real kids click on a spotify/youtube/tiktok link that yields the artist $3.50.
Maybe it’s all about counting artist t-shirts when walking through town.
― Siegbran, Tuesday, 6 July 2021 23:56 (two years ago) link
"Culture II feels like a classic New Jersey at this point"
100%
― mr.raffles, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 00:05 (two years ago) link
"Maybe it’s all about counting artist t-shirts when walking through town."
That actually doesn't seem like a bad metric! Like, wearing a Migos t-shirt in 2017 pre-Culture II would be a very different thing than wearing one in 2021. Maybe "one should feel faintly embarrassed to wear the artist's merch" should be part of the definition...
― mr.raffles, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 00:10 (two years ago) link
On reflection, though, what WERE the expectations of Bon Jovi in 1989? Did even their most fervent fans think that they were going to suddenly turn into Springsteen, U2 or Metallica? I was 14 in 1986 and Bon Jovi already seemed pretty hollow to me at their height, and I even read their Rolling Stone cover story.I was also thinking that, as a listener ages, they realize that decline in quality is almost inevitable past a certain point in an artist's career, so their expectations change.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 02:36 (two years ago) link
Sidebar: The New Jersey of NFTs
why are these sentences i have to read pic.twitter.com/ocIxIhVLlf— Laura Hudson (@laura_hudson) July 6, 2021
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 03:16 (two years ago) link
the fact that people are unironically discussing Migos in a t-shirt context clearly demonstrates how far the mighty have fallen
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 06:15 (two years ago) link
anyway, enjoy your entirely wholesome New Jersey buffet, folx!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPI-mRFEIH0
― ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 06:30 (two years ago) link
I was also thinking that, as a listener ages, they realize that decline in quality is almost inevitable past a certain point in an artist's career, so their expectations change.
― Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 09:28 (two years ago) link
one thing to keep in mind is that NJ status does not require the artists to REALLY fall off the map completely, become punchlines, die in obscurity etc. most of the names from the poll list are still very well known and even well regarded... just (if they kept on releasing albums) it's pretty clear there's a classic period and the later stuff. many people who bought t-shirts in the heyday will continue to wear them, perhaps only gradually realizing that the t-shirt no longer represents a "current" band to most eyes. meanwhile die-hard fans will find lots to enjoy in the later stuff, and appear on forums to review the newest records as they drop. the act has just lost the aura and centrality of being one of the biggest things in the world --- and, somehow, part of losing it took place right under their noses, in an album that seemed at the time like another key pillar in their undeniable monument.
― Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 11:55 (two years ago) link
On reflection, though, what WERE the expectations of Bon Jovi in 1989? Did even their most fervent fans think that they were going to suddenly turn into Springsteen, U2 or Metallica?
If you mean Robert Hilburn singing their praises, probably not. By any other measure, I think the answer may be yes. In 2021, Bon Jovi have more monthly Spotify listeners than all three of those artists fwiw.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:03 (two years ago) link
NJ is also their highest-rated album on RYM!
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:12 (two years ago) link
Perhaps dropping a New Jersey is a better long term strategy than dropping a Tunnel of Love, a Rattle & Hum, or a Load
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:14 (two years ago) link
Keep The Faith may not have sold as many records as Achtung Baby, but each one of those buyers went on to open a Spotify account.
― Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:34 (two years ago) link
Travis "The Invisible Band" - glowing reviews, straight to #1, ended up selling a lot less than "The Man Who" and they never had a hit after it.
― A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:43 (two years ago) link
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61hPHqgn4cL.jpg
― but also fuck you (unperson), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:57 (two years ago) link
Did even their most fervent fans think that they were going to suddenly turn into Springsteen, U2 or Metallica? I was 14 in 1986 and Bon Jovi already seemed pretty hollow to me at their height, and I even read their Rolling Stonethe fact you read a Rolling Stone article means you weren't even close to their core fanbasealso U2 and Metallica weren't legacy acts at that point. how could anyone think that Bon Jovi would "turn into" bands that were themselves almost at an identical place in their career? (following up a huge 86/87 breakthrough album than turned them into huge stars)
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 13:26 (two years ago) link
and really at the time it would have been far more plausible that Bon Jovi would have Metallica's career rather than vice versa
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 13:27 (two years ago) link
I wasn't talking about relative popularity or career arcs, just that it seems to me that Bon Jovi was already on a very narrow track of making pop-metal with rootsy overtones. Nobody was expecting them to go acoustic, or messianic, or heavy, so ultimately how disappointed could their audience have been with more of the same?
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 13:51 (two years ago) link
There's a lot of acoustic/country material and Springsteen homage on NJ, actually. The first few songs are not that representative.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:14 (two years ago) link
Sure, but no-one was expecting them to do Nebraska, or even Tunnel of Love.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:24 (two years ago) link
Oh yeah, no, they weren't going to make a Tracy Chapman record or anything. As a 9yo in 1988, I think I can say I was Bon Jovi's target audience and New Jersey did not disappoint.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:33 (two years ago) link
I think Hello Nasty is a potential New Jersey; I think Pauls/Check/Communication is central to their canon in a way that HN feels outside of - after the millennium they felt just “there” in a way that they weren’t before really (and is reflected with the response to To the 5 Boroughs)
(HN also their longest album)
― Master of Treacle, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:47 (two years ago) link
It didn't help that 5 Boroughs came out 6 years later
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:59 (two years ago) link
I loved Hello Nasty, a bit surprised how much I liked it. It kicked off a long-delayed deep dive in to Lee Perry. But also it left me feeling hollow enough that by the time T5B came out, I didn't feel the need to explore. I'd have been happy if they just released instro jams like The Mix Up after that, collab'ing with Tommy Guerrero and the like. It was a NJ for me for sure.
― Citole Country (bendy), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:53 (two years ago) link
― Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:02 (two years ago) link