Fleetwood Mac: Classic or Dud

In the UK they were still a phenomenon through 1990's Behind the Mask

I mean, sort of - I remember As Long As You Follow off the 1988 greatest hits getting play on the radio over here, but I don't remember anything off Behind The Mask. As for the backlash, I think they were just seen as fogeyish and from the past, and the single "I'd Rather Jack Than Fleetwood Mac" definitely put a negative spin on these veterans.

Years ago I skimmed through the DeRogatis-edited collection Kill Your Idols: A New Generation of Rock Writers Reconsiders the Classics, which has an essay on Rumours where a critic fantasies about assassinating Fleetwood Mac on stage. Book came out in 2004, though I don’t know if the piece itself is older.

and "Go Your Own Way" is punk as fuck. And fuck punk.

I think the ubiquity is what hurt its reputation, however much. I have a good friend that's told me of family road trips in the '70s where it felt like radio was literally nothing but the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac and occasionally Boston or something. That's when he told me he first felt a glimmer of the notion of "corporate rock," when it felt like someone higher up mandated that this music had to be played, like, every 20 minutes or something. So sure, I can imagine punk or whatever reacting against the ubiquity of Fleetwood Mac just as any of us might react to the ubiquity of anything we hear all the friggin' time. But there's a level of artistry and creativity to "Rumours" that counterbalances its slickness, and that's something I'd argue a band like the Eagles lacks.

and slickness is not a flaw in itself either

I was thinking about the Kill Your Idols book too. All the pieces in that were newly written. Book reviews singled out that Fleetwood Mac murder piece as among the worst of an uninspiring collection.

DeRo et al., on the cutting edge, taking aim at Fleetwood Mac in the '00s. That dude (who I like as a person), espousing all this BS contrarianism rooted so firmly in his formative views that he just sounds like a Quixotic crank. "You heard it here first, Springsteen is overrated!" etc.

xpost Not at all. But I bet the gleam would grate if it was all I ever heard on the radio.

A first-rate rhythm section, a singer-guitarist-songwriter with once-a-generation production acumen, and two female singer-songwriters with vastly different obsessions -- what's not to like?

And I love the Kirwan-Welch period too.

I mean, maybe Lester Bangs writing "James Taylor Marked For Death" in 1971 was a bold statement for the time, but expecting a pat on the back for writing about shooting that despised villain John McVie in 2004 is pathetic.
There were a few interesting articles in that book, despite the try-hard anti-boomer/Rolling Stone stance.

"Go Your Own Way" is punk as fuck.

Hells yeah. When Tango In the Night came out, a UK station here aired the Mirage-era concert movie, which I taped as a fresh Mac obsessive, and the fierceness and intensity of Lindsey and Stevie onstage was like nothing else I'd ever seen. The version of The Chain is still straight fire.

I mean, maybe Lester Bangs writing "James Taylor Marked For Death" in 1971 was a bold statement for the time, but expecting a pat on the back for writing about shooting that despised villain John McVie in 2004 is pathetic.

Also that piece was genuinely hilarious. Actually being funny can get you forgiven for many sins, and Lester's "larger than life" rep has, I feel, obscured for quite a few people the fact that he was a brilliant, brilliant writer.

and there's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGykwC0fdJ4

there's a level of artistry and creativity to "Rumours" that counterbalances its slickness, and that's something I'd argue a band like the Eagles lacks.

― Josh in Chicago

Post an uncontroversial music opinion

Well, sure, but my point was that even back then, almost 50 years ago, the Eagles personified '70s villainy much better than the Mac, but both bands, for several years, were nonetheless slotted in the same file, which makes me think the inescapable ubiquity of both made many people miss said FM artistry and craft, focusing entirely on the slickness.

^^Same thing w/Steely Dan.

...and England Dan and John Ford Coley.

xpost Yeah, exactly, I've known so many people that have flocked to Steely Dan for the same reason they flock to Jimmy Buffett, to have a good time, despite Steely Dan almost always being explicitly about *not* having a good time. (See also: Fleetwood Mac).

xp Yes, I imagine that's why I was raised on the Stones, Dylan, Van Morrison etc. but not Fleetwood Mac; I didn't discover them until my early twenties.

I went over to my parents' house the other day and my dad started pulling records out of his collection that he never listens to and handing them to me; I ended up with "Rumours," "Tusk," and "Tunnel of Love."

Good for you.

Well, sure, but my point was that even back then, almost 50 years ago, the Eagles personified '70s villainy much better than the Mac, but both bands, for several years, were nonetheless slotted in the same file, which makes me think the inescapable ubiquity of both made many people miss said FM artistry and craft, focusing entirely on the slickness.

I remember a lot of the haters conflating FM with the Eagles, which to me was a pretty terrible and superficial assessment. There's a lot about the Eagles that I genuinely despise, where they sound so full of themselves or come off as misogynist assholes. Some great stuff, there's at least a dozen cuts that I really like, but there's much more that I really, really don't.

Re: punk and FM, I think Marcus gave one of my favorite takes on FM, specifically Buckingham. Punk isn't just a sound, and the best thing about them IS punk. Not a written piece, it's from an interview by Geoff Pevere published in 1993:

GP: In the late ‘7os many people were saying that bands like Fleetwood Mac were the reason why punk needed to exist. Punk was an antidote for the kind of music Fleetwood Mac was making, and yet you make a very interesting claim in your book for the Tusk album being a response to punk. Tell me more about that.

GM: Well, I think throwing Fleetwood Mac on the same garbage pile as James Taylor and Carly Simon is ludicrous.

GP: I agree.

GM: Fleetwood Mac began as a blues band; they never lost their edge, even during their sort of California period with Bob Welch, when he was singing all these songs about the Bermuda Triangle and stuff like that.

But in 1977, that’s the year that the Sex Pistols really break as an international act of terrorism. That’s the Sex Pistols’ year. And in some ways the toughest record of that year is “Go Your Own Way” by Fleetwood Mac...It was as harsh and explosive and confusing a piece of hard rock as anyone had heard since the Who. After that, after Rumors then becomes a huge album, sells twenty million copies or whatever it sold, Fleetwood Mac comes along with Tusk. A two record set, the typical thing a big, mainstream rock band does after they’ve had a big hit; they get self-indulgent and sloppy. Tusk‘s first single is the title song “Tusk.” It was recorded with the UCLA marching band, sounds like they recorded backwards underwater. There’s just bits and pieces of tape loops flying around, and it sounds like this group of amateur musicians lurching toward a song that stays out of reach laughing at them, saying Can’t catch me, can’t catch me! This is what they released as a single? And they did what Nirvana is now trying to do; they said, “Can you keep up with us? Can we keep up with you? We’re gonna try something radical and different.” Lindsay Buckingham, who by that time was the real leader of Fleetwood Mac, had decided that what he was hearing in punk was what drew him to rock and roll in the first place, and here he was now a multimillionaire, a mainstream musician, who’s expected to do exactly what he did the time before, and he did his best to confound those expectations.

I find this particularly interesting because I know something about the world Lindsay Buckingham came out of. We went to the same high school. I went a number of years earlier; I went to school with his brothers. His brothers were swimming stars and class presidents; they were golden boys, and Lindsay Buckingham, though you may say he’s a golden boy, too—he’s made all this money, he’s rich and famous—he was not a golden boy in that family. He’s the one who stepped outside of the future that was prepared for him in that high school, as a class president which he didn’t become—this was a family dynasty, you have to understand—of the future in business, which he turned his back on and he became, for a number of years anyway, a failed, starving musician. That’s not what he was raised to be. So that same spirit, coming out of this very comfortable, very appealing, really good place to go to school and to grow up—Menlo Park, California; Atherton, California—this guy had a “no” in his soul already, and in a way what Tusk was about was his attempt to discover that “no:’ Whether or not he found it, I’m not sure. But it was a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to anybody who thought that they had this band pinned down. And I think that “we really don’t care” attitude was always there in the band.

That's exactly the clip I meant, Alfred. Imagine seeing that as a ten-year-old and having your mind absolutely blown wide open. Why are those two beautiful people screaming at each other??

And there was an immensely chey documentary that ran on late night TV around that time, that spelled out the history of the Mac with less wit or invention than the later Rock'n'Roll Family Trees episode on the Mac (which stands as the acme of its era of rockumentary tbh), but still spelled out enough detail of drug-maddened guitarists, internecine affairs and emotional warfare (and the fake Fleetwood Mac that toured in the early 70s) to truly pique a dumb young kid's imagination.

“Go Your Own Way” by Fleetwood Mac...It was as harsh and explosive and confusing a piece of hard rock as anyone had heard since the Who.

luv Greil, this is a great observation/opinion

As was this:

this guy had a “no” in his soul already

I read an early condensed version in In the Fascist Bedroom.

Wasup with these new "demos" singles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xdOzAm78gM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx8UZgg5TtI

Never liked "Go Your Own Way" even a little bit, but I did spend most of a recent day re-remembering how colossal "The Chain" is and comparing live versions to see which one extended the coda the longest, helped along by my younger (27) roommate's enthusiasm. Mac love ain't going nowhere.

xpost I have no idea why they were released, but both those songs are from the Tusk era and appear on the Live album, and apparently haven't been performed or released since.

Huh, I guess "Fireflies" was released as a live single? Peaked at number 60.

go your own way is top 5 for me, its the christine mcvie songs i mostly cant stand. have always hated don't stop, oh daddy and songbird from that album. you make lovin fun can stay though.

the demo tracks come from the recent box set reissue of the sublime 1980 Live album, which also has an accompanying bonus CD of live tracks from 1975-82

"Oh Daddy" is the least interesting song on the album, but "Songbird" is so well sung and so poised that I can't toss it, especially when my experience hearing the live versions deepens the studio cut.

I'm surprised at how deceiving "Hold Me" is as an elevator tune. It's actually quite good.

Any other latter day FM tunes people recommend?

All of them?

At least all the singles from Mirage and Tango in the Night.

Wow this latest single from Lindsay Buckingham is GOOD.

Been in a dadrock funk lately, searching out 90s-style mellowism...

This one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uEM6eO93iY

It was a different one, popped up on my Spotify recommends and was gonna sjip it, but this is fresh...

Also I am really liking Haim's cover of "Hold Me".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVhr1fNG_ik

especially since they based their sound from 2013-2017 on "Seven Wonders."

Rest In Peace Christine McVie pic.twitter.com/sJwlqgsBLw

— Christine McVie (@christine_mcvie) November 30, 2022

As shared in the Obituary thread, seeing reports that Christine McView passed away. I'm skeptical of Twitter these days, but this was also posted on what purports to be her Instagram as well (though I'll not that neither are verified).

official mac twitter has also put out a statement

god just utterly devastated

Yeah, this feels genuinely shocking.

The posts are mirrored on both her's and the band's Facebook pages which are verified, so I believe it to be real.

One of my favorite voices, simply beautiful. RIP.

Incredible, the true secret weapon of the band even during the Buckingham/Nicks industrial complex era. She wrote so many amazing songs on the five LP preceding their breakthrough on the 1975 self-titled, enough to make up a classic album of her own.

Terrible news, what a voice and what a talent. RIP.

Such a unique bluesy voice <3 I need to get around to listening to the Chicken Shack records she’s on.

That Christine Perfect album is one of my all time favorites.

Sounds silly to call her underrated in some respects, but given how much attention's given to the others, she really is. After Green left and before Buckingham and Nicks joined, she was singing and composing by far their best material, and even when they blew up into superstars, I think she was neck-and-neck with Buckingham as the group's best songwriter. (I like Nicks, any group's lucky to have her aboard, but I think McVie and Buckingham were creating better material.)

Fuck no! My favorite member of FM.

God, this is affecting me in a way that Prince/Bowie/George Michael etc. didn't.

Something about the way her melodies worked with her voice always gets me. Laid back but huge.

Something about the way her melodies worked with her voice always gets me. Laid back but huge.

Absolutely. This may sound a bit gooey, but the first time I heard "Say You Love Me" and "You Make Loving Fun" (would've been around high school) they seemed like the kind of thing you'd want to hear from your significant other.