Literary Clusterfucks 2013

Sure ok whatever xp

Go read r/gendercynical for a while and then come back and tell us that you are willing to defend terfs.

aimless, that is pretty nonsensical.

that is pretty nonsensical

not at all. it explains why terfs would show up to fight bills that are specifically anti-trans. it is because the legislators who sponsor such bills have a much broader agenda than anti-trans oppression and such bills are preliminary bouts that test the strength of each side.

this "no terf will ever be welcome in any battle I need to fight" righteousness is fine if all you want is to strike an attitude, but it weakens your cause to confine your allies to those whose ideas align entirely with yours. hence my citing the realpolitik of the USA/USSR alliance. The people who write anti-trans bills are far worse scum than terfs and if the price of stopping them is cooperation with terfs, it's a small price compared to letting the scum take over.

Doesn't mean we should be nicer to TERFs; they should still stop being TERFs and just advocate against bad laws for normal reasons like the rest of us.

looking forward to the molotov-ribbentrop pact analogy

has there been this mobilization by TERFs against anti-trans bills? I have seen zero evidence of this phenomenon

Yeah, what I see is considerable TERF mobilization in favour of such laws - they are, after all, based on the same scaremongering they fell for in the first place. Terfs who proudly fight against their own political objectives must be pretty politically confused.

Think that when some leftists tried to pitch the "bigoted working class whites are potential allies, we should try to get them onside" plan it was pretty roundly ridiculed because queer ppl and poc shouldn't have to deal with outspoken bigotry against themselves in the name of tactical solidarity. Don't think this is any different.

tipsy i can't help thinking that there’s a specific personal story that’s forming the basis for what you’re writing that you’re not telling us the details of and which we can therefore never actually get to the bottom of. i have to say i agree that on the face of it the idea that trans people and their allies - nominal or engaged - should put aside their differences with people who want to *check notes* deny them their right to exist in order to achieve a victory (?) in some other sphere (?) - feels like, how does one put it - booshit mang

I thiiink what's happening here is that tipsy is thinking of the acronym TERF akin to its early meaning of "long-time well-organised feminist campaigners, many radical enough to want to exclude perceived-male ppl from society in general, others enthusiastically involved in heterosexual activities - and who on democratic balance do not include trans wmn in their organisations"

and not the lower-case evolution of the term, in which a flourishing modern version of satanic panic has been whipped up over children being abducted from public changing rooms by trans ppl instead of by heavy metal musicians. also cis women might lose foot races, or something.

has there been this mobilization by TERFs against anti-trans bills? I have seen zero evidence of this phenomenon

it's possible that Aimless is also thinking of instances where oldschool radfems fought anti-trans legislation decades ago instead of what is happening now? citing specific bills would probably clarify.

Hungary has passed legislation that bars sharing LGBTQ content with people under the age of 18.

It comes after the ruling conservative party passed another law making it impossible for trans people to change the gender markers on their documents.https://t.co/AyKLSWtd0u

— NPR (@NPR) June 15, 2021

Section 28 turned out okay, right?

Aimless' comparison of this whole sorry business to WWII is very silly. You can't do tactical, temporary collaboration with ppl who deny lives (like the Nazis did, so it's faulty at its most basic level) and it's ignorant of how they behave in online spaces, and how the moral panic they conjure up is now being translated into hostile legislation.

Seeing that there can be no collaboration is the ultimate source of pain for liberals. Hence the lashing out of non-collaborationists as having an 'attitude' problem. Maybe they are lacking in maturity too. Or they want purity.

Its also my experience that terfs are pretty single issue, and that issue is anti trans. I know lots of people who have spent decades working hard and full time around issues of reproductive health, domestic violence, abortion stigma, and so on. Most of these people are now under siege by terfs and obstructed and frustrated from doing the work they want to do by an onslaught of pressure against things like services using more inclusive language.

I think its illuminating that one of jk rowling's most famous transphobic tweets was directed at an international development organisation working in africa and east asia providing access to menstrual hygiene for people in developing countries, similarly the current main target of terfs in the UK is the largest LGBT+ rights organisation.

tipsy i can't help thinking that there’s a specific personal story that’s forming the basis for what you’re writing

This is true, but I recognize the limits of anecdote. I also recognize the differences between U.S. and U.K. politics. TERFs are not a particular cultural force in the U.S., certainly not in Tennessee. So I’m just going to shut up and not argue the point. I do not want to hurt anybody or be misunderstood.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. I don’t want any ambiguity about my own beliefs on that.

this thread took a turn. I just want to amplify this:

xp I guess I'm confused why you feel the need to attack both sides here, in this thread, as somehow equally responsible for the dialog, and deserving of more grace than they get from every paper, news media property, the Guardian... Are TERFs the ones who are suffering here?

― vcrash, Saturday, June 19, 2021 11:33 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

and apply this logic to the specific situation of Adichie publicly maligning Emezi. The way this rift began is that Emezi had been a student of Adichie’s and really admired her, as many young Nigerian writers do. Adichie was supposed to blurb Emezi’s first novel and then Emezi came out as non-binary, and Adichie balked, pulled out of having her name associated with the novel, and Emezi accepted that. Emezi also wrote about how painful the fallout was, again, because they had admired Adichie and to be rejected by her based on their gender identity was painful. I don’t really get “both sides”ing this situation: Adichie has been an asshole. Emezi was just…being. (And Adichie is famous and well regarded and on a Beyonce album and everything! What is her goddamn problem? Just shut up about trans identity, about which you know nothing!!!)

I want to say something about TERF-ism which is that it strikes me as very jealously protective of the abject status of a narrowly defined concept of womanhood and thereby blind to the fact that as a woman, one can abuse one’s power over others. Emezi is a rising star, but there’s no question that Adichie has institutional power behind her, and when they first fell out, Adichie failed them as a mentor. Adichie sees trans women as endowed with privileges cis women lack, and just looking at the material realities of trans women’s lives, that seems like a crazy reading to me. I don’t think it’s fair to ask trans people to make common cause with people who don’t support their existence, just as I bristle when people tell me to make common cause with white racists.

I think what Adichie did bothers me so much in part because I teach, and I teach some trans kids, and I am a 40 something cis feminist, and IT IS NOT HARD to support students or listen to them when they tell you about their lives and experiences! How obsessed with yourself and defensive about your identity do you have to be to withdraw support from someone because they don’t identify as you do?

otm

I want to note that I was not excusing Adichie's shit in my comment above that plax mentioned, certainly didn't mean for it to come out that way. I think her comments are awful.

oh i didn't take it that way and me neither btw

also lol i think it would be pretty out of character if you did

Really good essay on this, gives plenty of context:

https://gal-dem.com/chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-viral-essay-shows-transphobia/

Worth a read, especially for those who think repeating a mantra like 'trans women are women' is 'cringe' or whatever the fuck.

That's a good essay, and seems like a really good site.

gal-dem is very good yes

Thanks for sharing that, xyzzzz, much more measured than I would be but great article nonetheless.

gal dem is great

and since we're sortof on the topic, this investigative piece is a great if harrowing read

https://gal-dem.com/transphobia-sexual-violence-sound-like-a-man-hang-up-vawg-investigation/

Pretty good account of something that should not have been published.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/09/kate-clanchy-book-updated-racial-stereotypes-picador-some-kids-i-taught

practically and realistically very few UK publishers actually now stump up the cash for the dedicated layer of editorial staff competent to tackle these kinds of issues in advance a manuscript will be read by

i: lawyers but they're not looking out for this kind of thing
ii: half-read by the commissioning or a copy editor lightly advising on structure or argument and such (but judging by heavyweight books that make it out into the wild, these levels of reading are often barely adequate and often miss basic sentence repetitions, let alone anything subtle ("subtle")
iii: a proofing editor if the publisher is flush with cash lol

it's rare for books even to be fact-checked (or i suppose i shd say the onus is placed entirely on the author and the publisher is largely the conduit -- and such oversight as there is comes from staffers quite low in the foodchain and often simply without the authority to say "this passage is very dodgy and must be rewritten"

“She later claimed the quotes were “all made up”” sounds like she didn’t read her own book either

For which I do not blame her as it sounds awful

had a racist intern write it

lol imagine the gall "this thing that you're saying I wrote, that is in my award-winning book? you're making it up."

like how fucking thick and racist is this woman.

the examples in this paragraph escalate quickly

In particular, readers criticised the inclusion of racial stereotypes such as “almond-shaped eyes” and “chocolate-coloured skin”, and references to one student as “African Jonathon” and another being “so small and square and Afghan with his big nose and premature moustache”.

had a racist intern write it

you laugh but this seriously could have been what happened.

Danielle Rose lost her job as Poetry Editor over this tweet. Complete BS. Totally outrageous. pic.twitter.com/GlncJ9Jtqy

— Forrest Cardamenis (@FCardamenis) September 5, 2021

imagine being a literary editor and thinking that a tweet is a good place to express that idea

It's at least half true, but it was the wrong half for the poetry editor of a magazine to attach to herself in public. I can see why he managing editor would be livid about it.

she could have written, like, an essay or something.

Yes, exactly, a little more room for nuance.

seems like her point has been made

she's rolling with it and is either happy or has convinced herself that she is, same thing imo, everybody gets to be as mad as they want & she gets to feel like she provoked some discussion. everybody wins

seems like her point has been made

when you're done being the poetry editor of barren magazine

One of the reasons the literary scene is so bad is bcz most ppl in it think it's a conversation with each other. They don't believe this is for anyone outside of it.

She will be replaced with someone who believes the same thing as her.

tfw when you get sacked for misaligned vision

Jumping off the Barren Mag gravy train, how will she recoup those millions?

https://themillions.com/

Why would you name your literary magazine that.