Literary Clusterfucks 2013

xp You have a wildly different definition of TERF than I am familiar with.

Like, have you read JK Rowling's letter, the one that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has defended several times? How on earth is that helping trans people?

I'm not talking about the intramural fights! I'm talking about political mobilization among allies. Endless flame wars don't help trans people either.

???????????????

I know, I know. It's not cool to say that people should work together for common interests and/or against common enemies. But it's true anyway.

¿?

xp Wait, is your theory that all TERFs are actually trans allies, unfairly maligned? Because that's the only way I can reconcile your comments here.

At least, that's the closest thing to a positive interpretation I can figure out.

The TERFs I know were 100 percent vocal and active against the anti-trans legislation in my state, yes. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you are conceiving of both them and the actual battle much too narrowly. If you don't have a definition of "ally" that understands the importance of that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Which is not to say Rowling or Adichie are acting like allies either. They're not! Hence the "on all sides."

"terfs did a thing that isn't reprehensible, therefore we should be nice to them"

love that anecdotal evidence of "some friends", always super convincing

xp I guess I'm confused why you feel the need to attack both sides here, in this thread, as somehow equally responsible for the dialog, and deserving of more grace than they get from every paper, news media property, the Guardian... Are TERFs the ones who are suffering here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhipiMNiYk

TERFs could list all kinds of ways they're suffering, yes. Or did we achieve women's full legal and economic equality while I was sleeping?

That's exactly the kind of villain framing that's bad for building and maintaining alliances. There are in fact plenty of common interests and reasons to unite. Spending endless hours on internal fights makes all of that harder.

But I don't want to get into an intramural fight either. Like I said, they're exhausting and they make me sad.

I’m not on the same side of any wall as any terf, fucko

Intramural my ass.

Creep.

Lol at coming into this thread saying "both sides are bad, they should be nicer to each other" and then ducking out after saying how much you like your TERF friends.

You do realize that TERFs could stop being TERFs by just not excluding trans women from their definition of womanhood, right? Like, it's not some innate state of being, and they aren't suffering because they're TERFs. Why not just be a non-trans-excluding feminist?

tipsy mothra, do you know what TERF stands for, and that it's not just a synonym for "feminism"?

^^^

as a woman, i do not consider TERFs my ally in any way. they are villains and don't give a shit about women's full legal and economic equality because "full" would mean including *all* women.

i can't believe anyone would defend them on this thread in THIS discussion, let alone anywhere. we have trans posters. for now. jesus christ.

Of course I know what it stands for. And if you don't have a way to bring together people fighting for gender rights and equality that includes people who, e.g., have been fighting for gay rights for decades, then you're making your own fight harder. It takes work by everyone. That's how alliances work. The successful ones anyway.

Fuck entirely off, you can stay off my side, asshole

And yes there is more responsibility on the part of people with more privilege and power.

OK, I'm sorry. I understand and respect the sentiments of the room.

The USA allied with Stalin's USSR in WWII and that alliance was crucial to defeating the Nazis. Flawed allies can help you win battles and even wars, so long as each side of the alliance understands the necessity of defeating a common enemy. After WWII ended, they turned their attention to having it out with one another, but they each knew to address first things first.

Sure ok whatever xp

Go read r/gendercynical for a while and then come back and tell us that you are willing to defend terfs.

aimless, that is pretty nonsensical.

that is pretty nonsensical

not at all. it explains why terfs would show up to fight bills that are specifically anti-trans. it is because the legislators who sponsor such bills have a much broader agenda than anti-trans oppression and such bills are preliminary bouts that test the strength of each side.

this "no terf will ever be welcome in any battle I need to fight" righteousness is fine if all you want is to strike an attitude, but it weakens your cause to confine your allies to those whose ideas align entirely with yours. hence my citing the realpolitik of the USA/USSR alliance. The people who write anti-trans bills are far worse scum than terfs and if the price of stopping them is cooperation with terfs, it's a small price compared to letting the scum take over.

Doesn't mean we should be nicer to TERFs; they should still stop being TERFs and just advocate against bad laws for normal reasons like the rest of us.

looking forward to the molotov-ribbentrop pact analogy

has there been this mobilization by TERFs against anti-trans bills? I have seen zero evidence of this phenomenon

Yeah, what I see is considerable TERF mobilization in favour of such laws - they are, after all, based on the same scaremongering they fell for in the first place. Terfs who proudly fight against their own political objectives must be pretty politically confused.

Think that when some leftists tried to pitch the "bigoted working class whites are potential allies, we should try to get them onside" plan it was pretty roundly ridiculed because queer ppl and poc shouldn't have to deal with outspoken bigotry against themselves in the name of tactical solidarity. Don't think this is any different.

tipsy i can't help thinking that there’s a specific personal story that’s forming the basis for what you’re writing that you’re not telling us the details of and which we can therefore never actually get to the bottom of. i have to say i agree that on the face of it the idea that trans people and their allies - nominal or engaged - should put aside their differences with people who want to *check notes* deny them their right to exist in order to achieve a victory (?) in some other sphere (?) - feels like, how does one put it - booshit mang

I thiiink what's happening here is that tipsy is thinking of the acronym TERF akin to its early meaning of "long-time well-organised feminist campaigners, many radical enough to want to exclude perceived-male ppl from society in general, others enthusiastically involved in heterosexual activities - and who on democratic balance do not include trans wmn in their organisations"

and not the lower-case evolution of the term, in which a flourishing modern version of satanic panic has been whipped up over children being abducted from public changing rooms by trans ppl instead of by heavy metal musicians. also cis women might lose foot races, or something.

has there been this mobilization by TERFs against anti-trans bills? I have seen zero evidence of this phenomenon

it's possible that Aimless is also thinking of instances where oldschool radfems fought anti-trans legislation decades ago instead of what is happening now? citing specific bills would probably clarify.

Hungary has passed legislation that bars sharing LGBTQ content with people under the age of 18.

It comes after the ruling conservative party passed another law making it impossible for trans people to change the gender markers on their documents.https://t.co/AyKLSWtd0u

— NPR (@NPR) June 15, 2021

Section 28 turned out okay, right?

Aimless' comparison of this whole sorry business to WWII is very silly. You can't do tactical, temporary collaboration with ppl who deny lives (like the Nazis did, so it's faulty at its most basic level) and it's ignorant of how they behave in online spaces, and how the moral panic they conjure up is now being translated into hostile legislation.

Seeing that there can be no collaboration is the ultimate source of pain for liberals. Hence the lashing out of non-collaborationists as having an 'attitude' problem. Maybe they are lacking in maturity too. Or they want purity.

Its also my experience that terfs are pretty single issue, and that issue is anti trans. I know lots of people who have spent decades working hard and full time around issues of reproductive health, domestic violence, abortion stigma, and so on. Most of these people are now under siege by terfs and obstructed and frustrated from doing the work they want to do by an onslaught of pressure against things like services using more inclusive language.

I think its illuminating that one of jk rowling's most famous transphobic tweets was directed at an international development organisation working in africa and east asia providing access to menstrual hygiene for people in developing countries, similarly the current main target of terfs in the UK is the largest LGBT+ rights organisation.

tipsy i can't help thinking that there’s a specific personal story that’s forming the basis for what you’re writing

This is true, but I recognize the limits of anecdote. I also recognize the differences between U.S. and U.K. politics. TERFs are not a particular cultural force in the U.S., certainly not in Tennessee. So I’m just going to shut up and not argue the point. I do not want to hurt anybody or be misunderstood.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. I don’t want any ambiguity about my own beliefs on that.

this thread took a turn. I just want to amplify this:

xp I guess I'm confused why you feel the need to attack both sides here, in this thread, as somehow equally responsible for the dialog, and deserving of more grace than they get from every paper, news media property, the Guardian... Are TERFs the ones who are suffering here?

― vcrash, Saturday, June 19, 2021 11:33 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

and apply this logic to the specific situation of Adichie publicly maligning Emezi. The way this rift began is that Emezi had been a student of Adichie’s and really admired her, as many young Nigerian writers do. Adichie was supposed to blurb Emezi’s first novel and then Emezi came out as non-binary, and Adichie balked, pulled out of having her name associated with the novel, and Emezi accepted that. Emezi also wrote about how painful the fallout was, again, because they had admired Adichie and to be rejected by her based on their gender identity was painful. I don’t really get “both sides”ing this situation: Adichie has been an asshole. Emezi was just…being. (And Adichie is famous and well regarded and on a Beyonce album and everything! What is her goddamn problem? Just shut up about trans identity, about which you know nothing!!!)

I want to say something about TERF-ism which is that it strikes me as very jealously protective of the abject status of a narrowly defined concept of womanhood and thereby blind to the fact that as a woman, one can abuse one’s power over others. Emezi is a rising star, but there’s no question that Adichie has institutional power behind her, and when they first fell out, Adichie failed them as a mentor. Adichie sees trans women as endowed with privileges cis women lack, and just looking at the material realities of trans women’s lives, that seems like a crazy reading to me. I don’t think it’s fair to ask trans people to make common cause with people who don’t support their existence, just as I bristle when people tell me to make common cause with white racists.

I think what Adichie did bothers me so much in part because I teach, and I teach some trans kids, and I am a 40 something cis feminist, and IT IS NOT HARD to support students or listen to them when they tell you about their lives and experiences! How obsessed with yourself and defensive about your identity do you have to be to withdraw support from someone because they don’t identify as you do?

otm

I want to note that I was not excusing Adichie's shit in my comment above that plax mentioned, certainly didn't mean for it to come out that way. I think her comments are awful.

oh i didn't take it that way and me neither btw

also lol i think it would be pretty out of character if you did

Really good essay on this, gives plenty of context:

https://gal-dem.com/chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-viral-essay-shows-transphobia/

Worth a read, especially for those who think repeating a mantra like 'trans women are women' is 'cringe' or whatever the fuck.

That's a good essay, and seems like a really good site.