who was the first hardcore band?

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The 2nd Discharge EP is my favourite. Dunno if it's my overall favourite British HC record, I'd have to think about that...

― Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:49 (sixteen years ago) link

ooh, see, i haven't heard the middle class record. is it in print on vinyl?

― ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:49 (sixteen years ago) link

Out of Vogue by The Middle Class, as mentioned is supposed to be the first hardcore song, though some considered them Germs rip-offs and give the credit to the Germs. Out of Vogue came out in 78. So did Lexicon Devil.

But the right answer is "The Man on the Dune" by The Outsiders, which was what, 68 or something.

― dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:52 (sixteen years ago) link

No, the CD reissue is also OOP and expensive on Ebay but there is a bootleg version that's not that hard to find.

2 of the songs from the EP (including Out Of Vogue) were actually issued in the UK by Fast Product in 1979, so they weren't completely unknown even then.

xpost again!

― Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:53 (sixteen years ago) link

Known even in scotland...how did Bob Last have his ear to the ground in the west coast to release that and the Dead Kennedys?

― dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:55 (sixteen years ago) link

The Middle Class were on one of the Earcom samplers.

― leavethecapital, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:11 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Earcom #3 double 7".

― Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:14 (sixteen years ago) link

The Germs had the thuggish straight jock Huntington Beach hardcore fan base and the arty faggy Hollywood punk fan base. They straddle the divide.

― Drew Daniel, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:17 (sixteen years ago) link

I have yet to hear The Middle Class and I'm flabbergasted to hear they were on Fast.

For me Bad Brains were definitive formal innovators, but I was the wrong side of the pond. So much I've heard since has imitated their moves. I'd love to know if they were aware of Discharge.

― Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:23 (sixteen years ago) link

that first middle class 7" is cool. later they got kind of post-punky, still cool. I know I've written here before about why they should be considered hardcore. mostly because of formal concerns. maybe I'll leonardo it.

germs = too sloppy
bad brains = didn't get started until '79
black flag = gets my vote

― Edward III, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Andrea True Connection, rofl.

― jim, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:40 (sixteen years ago) link

some middle class talk here:

"American Hardcore: The History of American Punk Rock 1980-1986"

interview:
http://agonyshorthand.blogspot.com/2006/07/interview-with-mike-atta-from-middle.html

― Edward III, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:40 (sixteen years ago) link

I've never heard the later stuff, just Out of Vogue and two songs on Tooth and Nail. From that interview feels like they wouldn't mind the kind of cred/positioning the Urinals get these days as an art-punk band.

― dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:08 (sixteen years ago) link

It's pretty funny that a band calling themselves The Urinals get all the cred.

― Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

man the urinals are so good though!

― ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Hey, I'm not dissing 'em, but . . post-punk shit getting out of hand.

― Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:25 (sixteen years ago) link

dan the later stuff is very 100 flowers!

― artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:39 (sixteen years ago) link

dl the middle class comp everybody. it is an interesting listen.

― artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:40 (sixteen years ago) link

Re: the Urinals, I just mean cred so far as the 12 of us who give a shit care! I've always meant to check out the rest of the Middle Class stuff, I'll keep a look-out.

― dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Actually, forget about who was exactly first - who were the first dozen?

― Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:51 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.mostmerciful.com/last%2520supper-in%2520color.jpg

― ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:53 (sixteen years ago) link

post punk shit is no longer out of hand. we have all moved on to the mid 80s. get with the program.

― artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:07 (sixteen years ago) link

i am rocking game theory and vulgar boatman records

― artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:08 (sixteen years ago) link

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00007BH41.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46864324_SS500_.jpg

― artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:13 (sixteen years ago) link

xpost: bad brains = didn't get started until '79

― Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:18 (sixteen years ago) link

bad brains and black flag weren't hardcore bands cuz they were too old. hardcore is punk's little brother.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:55 (sixteen years ago) link

i mean this is a stupid thread. the first question is: WHAT IS HARDCORE?

Define your terms.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:56 (sixteen years ago) link

alternative definiton: band must have a logo

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:57 (sixteen years ago) link

i'd say Minor Threat's the most definitive

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:14 (sixteen years ago) link

HC band, that is

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:14 (sixteen years ago) link

definitve /= definition

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:15 (sixteen years ago) link

i'll take the logo theory

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:18 (sixteen years ago) link

so by that token, Black Flag and Dead Kennedy's are hardcore or at least proto-hardcore

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:19 (sixteen years ago) link

this is kind of like deciding if archaeropteryx counts athe first bird innit

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:20 (sixteen years ago) link

*counts as

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:20 (sixteen years ago) link

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~iav202/powers/toywittgenstein.jpg

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:21 (sixteen years ago) link

you know they now say dinosaurs such as Velociraptor and Deinonychus and even t-rex had feathers? wild, huh?

i bet Jello Biafra has feathers

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:21 (sixteen years ago) link

was Jello Biafra the first hardcore mayoral candidate?

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:24 (sixteen years ago) link

i say no.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:24 (sixteen years ago) link

i mean this is a stupid thread. the first question is: WHAT IS HARDCORE?

well to do spoiled kids from the suburbs who have everything they could want (except for daddy's love) trying hard to act tough and to find something to be pissed off about.

Say, there's a photo in the book American Hardcore of a poster I've seen a lot, but cant find it on the internet to save my life. Its a pic of Ron and Nancy Reagan as skin heads--and I think a nuclear bomb is going off in the background...anyone here got that picture???

― Tinky-Winky, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:48 (sixteen years ago) link

actually that makes me think hardcore might not have existed until reagan was elected.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:51 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.mkdata.dk/wg/donkey.jpg

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:55 (sixteen years ago) link

if reagan lost many young losers would have been more new wave, but as homoerotic

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:05 (sixteen years ago) link

(just as)

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Sonically, it's the Who. Just listen to the "Things Go Better With Coke" jingle on the expanded The Who Sell Out CD.

― Sara Sara Sara, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:22 (sixteen years ago) link

http://blogs.chron.com/mamadrama/archives/pepe-le-pew.gif

― Mike Dixn, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 03:49 (sixteen years ago) link

one of my college roomates had a punk band in 1979 called HARD CORPS.

see also NYC band The Stimulators "Short Fast Rules" they jump-started the NY scene and their 12 year old drummer went on to the Cro-Mags.

― m coleman, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 10:12 (sixteen years ago) link

leonardo plz

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:35 (sixteen years ago) link

wait didnt you say in the bangs thread you were working at rollingstone? you are the enemy, man! you are a hardcore agent provocateur.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:36 (sixteen years ago) link

I would have to say Middle Class but even now the dudes from the band think it's crazy that people call them 'hardcore'

― DJ Mencap, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:40 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm listening to Budgie's self-titled album from 1971, and "Rape Of The Locks" has a lot of typical hardcore manoeuvres...

― todd, Thursday, 26 April 2007 05:40 (sixteen years ago) link

do I not get ANY love for the Outsiders as hardcore? Go listen to the Man On the Dune...the speed, the breakdown...it's uncanny!

― dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 06:00 (sixteen years ago) link

leodanrdo plz

― artdamages, Thursday, 26 April 2007 13:41 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.sendspace.com/file/rg0yhk

― dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 15:05 (sixteen years ago) link

WE DON NEED NO TV
WE DON NEED NO PICTURESHO
WE DON NEED NO ANYTHIN
WE DON WANNA NO!

― Mark G, Thursday, 26 April 2007 15:08 (sixteen years ago) link

The "I Gotta Right" single nails some hardcore touchstones.

― QuantumNoise, Thursday, 26 April 2007 15:09 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm listening to Budgie's self-titled album from 1971, and "Rape Of The Locks" has a lot of typical hardcore manoeuvres...

and

do I not get ANY love for the Outsiders as hardcore? Go listen to the Man On the Dune...the speed, the breakdown...it's uncanny!

But isnt hardcore more than just a style of music? Or the way it sounds?

― Tinky-Winky, Thursday, 26 April 2007 16:55 (sixteen years ago) link

it's CB's matinees with Judge and Gorilla Biscuits!

seriously, like any genre I'm sure it means all kind of special things to different people, I'm not saying the Outsiders invented hardcore...and I'm gonna guess that neither the Middle Class nor the Germs nor Black Flag nor Bad Brains sat around and studied the Outsiders (though you never know...) I'm JUST SAYIN that that old song from 1968 sounds uncannily like some hardcore sounded in the early 80s.

― dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:14 (sixteen years ago) link

Perhaps perversely, I'd really like to hear some knowledgable guitar-players pick apart the musical and strong-structural elements of hardcore and where they came from. Metal dudes do this sort of thing so much better.

Discussion of what hardcore means and meant, on the other hand, leads directly into the endless ILM 'IS PUNK DEAD?' tag-team smackdown.

― Soukesian, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:53 (sixteen years ago) link

The most obvious characteristic of hardcore is the agressive tempo of the guitar strumming. The drums were fast as firecrackers as well.

BTW, punk isnt dead, but it is totally irrelevent in today's corporate consumer culture.

― Tinky-Winky, Saturday, 28 April 2007 00:24 (sixteen years ago) link

but we all agree it was the Outsiders now that I've shared it, right?

― dan selzer, Saturday, 28 April 2007 02:21 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.hardcorehalloffame.com/main.html

― m coleman, Saturday, 28 April 2007 12:32 (sixteen years ago) link

BTW, punk isnt dead, but it is totally irrelevent in today's corporate consumer culture.

huh? whenever I hear the local top 40 radio station, they're usually playing hip-hop and pop-punk

12XU must be a key track in hardcore history (covered by bad Brains, Minor threat etc)

― todd, Saturday, 28 April 2007 14:46 (sixteen years ago) link

wow! something to watch on Queens public access!

― dan selzer, Saturday, 28 April 2007 15:40 (sixteen years ago) link

eleven years pass...

12XU must be a key track in hardcore history (covered by bad Brains, Minor threat etc)

i was searching for a hardcore thread to revive, related to this.

does anyone know about the origins of "ONE TWO FUCK YOU!" as a way to start a song? was it an homage to Wire's 1 2 X U (1977)? or was it just a way to kick off a song that was inevitable at some point?

― Karl Malone, Thursday, 10 January 2019 05:09 (five years ago) link

do I not get ANY love for the Outsiders as hardcore? Go listen to the Man On the Dune...the speed, the breakdown...it's uncanny!
― dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 06:00 (eleven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he's not wrong!

― Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 10 January 2019 08:52 (five years ago) link

wrt Wire I had it in my head that the 'X' of the title was a stand-in for 'fuck' but not sure I can back this up

― Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 10 January 2019 08:54 (five years ago) link

BTW, punk isnt dead, but it is totally irrelevent in today's corporate consumer culture.

huh? whenever I hear the local top 40 radio station, they're usually playing hip-hop and pop-punk

2019, ""punk is dead" is dead" is dead

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 10 January 2019 09:09 (five years ago) link

Orange County's Middle Class, I believe

― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:17 (five years ago) link

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