― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:19 (twenty years ago) link
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:34 (twenty years ago) link
Because if it's not I may cry.
― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:35 (twenty years ago) link
so apologies.
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:38 (twenty years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:48 (twenty years ago) link
(x-post)
shakey that's not true.
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:49 (twenty years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:50 (twenty years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:52 (twenty years ago) link
Chuck Berry is a nut, true, but you can boil all of his songs down to really generic topics tailor made for youthful infatuations of the day(sex, "rocking", cars, etc.)
Prove me wrong, kids.
And I don't care if Dylan would agree with me or not, what does that have to do with anything?
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
i think dylan took allusiveness and obliqueness to new levels in rock lyrics, but the problem fritz is with your assertion that such attributes were entirely new. you're guilty of hyberbole, that's all.
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link
fritz: huh?
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link
1,000 apologies.
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:58 (twenty years ago) link
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:59 (twenty years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:01 (twenty years ago) link
― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:07 (twenty years ago) link
Amateurist: hyperbolic, eh maybe. But really, I can't think of a single performer who placed such a heavy premium on rock n roll as a vehicle for personal expression (or the illusion thereof) prior to Dylan. Elvis was a personality, but it was obvious right from the beginning he was singing other people's songs, directed by others, singing in an established idiom (blues lyrics), etc. With Dylan, you had someone forcing you to listen to a language and delivery that was highly individualized, way more so than anyone before him. I'm not knocking his many predecessors or the styles they worked in, I just think Dylan was at the crux of a massive shift in the language of rock, and that makes him pretty, er, "defensible".
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:09 (twenty years ago) link
I understand what you're trying to say, Shakey, but this is fallacious. number one, Elvis directed his own sessions most of the time--something his nominal producers (Sam Phillips, Felton Jarvis) have said on the record numerous times. two, casting Elvis as merely a "blues singer" ignores not only the dozens of other things going on in his music at any given time, especially his vocal style. three, that delivery was as highly individualized as anything Dylan did--Elvis just had a prettier voice to deliver it with.
― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:18 (twenty years ago) link
Dylan was great, and we was an innovator but he didn't INVENT what you ascribe to him
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:20 (twenty years ago) link
― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:22 (twenty years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:23 (twenty years ago) link
― King Kobra (King Kobra), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:31 (twenty years ago) link
The value of Bob Dylan is connected to the voice. The 'can't sing' thing.... I think the word 'singer' is used too often, like some people think the word 'genius' is used too often. Dylan really sings. If you don't hear this, just don't bother. The lyrics are good, mostly, fantastic occasionally, but really the point of them is not to let the voice down.
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:52 (twenty years ago) link
HAhahahahahahahahaha. That made my day. I personally don't enjoy Bob Dylan's music at all. Never have. I've tried, mind you (after a good friend's tireless insistence that in dismissing Bob Dylan that I'm shamefully missing out on the greatest music known to man), but it just isn't there for me. That said, I'd hardly call him "indefensible". If anything. The man's deified to ridiculous degrees, and you're verily taking your life in your hands if you dare say anything against him (or at least around stodgy folkies, roots rockers, aging hippies, self-appointed poetry "slammers", aging rock critics, etc. etc.) I don't think the man should be put to death or anything, but I just don't enjoy his music.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 20:54 (twenty years ago) link
― Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link
Was Dylan the first real example of the best rock and roll vocal device ever, the SNEER? If so, he deserves canonisation just for that, regardless of any of the other factors. (Thom Yorke and John Lydon to thread.)
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:05 (twenty years ago) link
Then again, if I like Fred Durst's voice, it should be any surprise I can handle Dylan's.
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:24 (twenty years ago) link
I wouldn't be too surprised to wake up to similar threads betales, rolling stones and beethoven. its unfortunate but its ilm.
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:28 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:29 (twenty years ago) link
ew
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:30 (twenty years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:32 (twenty years ago) link
― Cardinal Fang (Cardinal Fang), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link
(i said that.)
― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 22:13 (twenty years ago) link
― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 22:33 (twenty years ago) link
What's that crap?
(Dan Perry: That's not crap, that's shit, that is.)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 22:47 (twenty years ago) link
kogan, in response: 'i know, who does he think you are? bob dylan?')
― David. (Cozen), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 22:49 (twenty years ago) link
come the fuck on
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:58 (two years ago) link
like i said earlier, this time period has been well documented, I think that's one reason you're having so many people chime in
― a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:01 (two years ago) link
xp
You think attacking people leads to productive conversations? If you believe that the investigative turn is the wrong thing (which is my opinion too btw), do you believe you are going to achieve anything positive by just saying it's shitty and you expect better of posters? It seems to me that's more policing than idk sharing of ideas and explanations.
― Van Horn Street, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:02 (two years ago) link
And my perspective is that searching for and publicly distributing exculpatory evidence—for whatever motive or however non-prejudicially—contributes to rape culture by sending a message that victims of sexual assault need to make sure their accounts of inherently traumatizing and psychologically altering experiences are airtight before coming forward.
I support women coming forward to tell their story. I disagree with you that I or anyone else who discusses this timeline in Dylan's life as contributing to rape culture. Framing it as evidence seems a little presumptuous as well.
― a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:03 (two years ago) link
the immediate and sustained turn this thread took for the investigative
Welcome to Dylan fandom.
I appreciate your larger point even if I disagree a little bit.
― Captain Beefart (PBKR), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:05 (two years ago) link
wow the manstigating on this thread is really bumming me out. Trader hand etc otm :-(
― brimstead, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:25 (two years ago) link
it’s 2021
― brimstead, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:26 (two years ago) link
ok I’m off my high horse
I like Trader Hand. It’s even more wild west than my real handle.It’s always confusing and horrible when someone whose art you’ve loved is accused of something terrible. I get it. How do you process it? What do you do? I think we owe it to the board to be really careful about how we process it. Going on and on about the different ways that you think the alleged victim’s story doesn’t add up is grotesque. THAT is the “attack” - on every victim of sexual assault. And yeah it’s going to provoke some strong reactions. Or at least it had better.Considering buying materials in order to continue the sleuthing I think is probably a sign that you are too invested in your image of Bob Dylan as a good guy to have a fair judgment about it. Why go to these lengths? Who possibly could have a fair judgment about it right now? We have to live with this shitty stink around Bob Dylan for awhile and no amount of sleuthing of going to counter that, unfortunately.
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:21 (two years ago) link
I probably have been over-invested in following every angle here - but not because of some image of Dylan a "good guy" (I've never been too interested in his private life) but because the claim is so horrible (and the available details so minimal - we don't even know the plaintiff's "story," just how it's being characterized in the brief) that yes it would be devastating to me as a fan of his music if it has truth to it. Honestly I think you're underplaying the magnitude of what's being alleged. I won't post any more "sleuthing" if it's not welcome here though.
― Shallot Shortage 2021 (morrisp), Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:28 (two years ago) link
I would get personally skeeved out if people were trying to dig up personal details of the accuser, but I haven't seen anything like that on this thread.
― o. nate, Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:35 (two years ago) link
Going on and on about the different ways that you think the alleged victim’s story doesn’t add up is grotesque.
No one is going on about the victim's story, because we don't know the vicitm's story. We do know a lot about the person accused of these crimes, and where they were, and that's what I think some people are not understanding. No one's calling the story into question, we just know about the accusation.
― a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:56 (two years ago) link
And shaming people for buying a book is not a good look imho
ILX is not perfect but from what i've seen, posters have responded to the numerous accounts of abusive/predatory behavior from musicians in the last few years with sympathy and support for the victims and anger and disappointment towards the musicians, and I have not seen much in the way of demanding more proof or mounting defenses of the accused. I do think this case is an outlier - the alleged offense being 56 years ago, how famous the accused is and was at the time, and the question of whether this could even have taken place as described based on the facts that exist. I totally understand being uncomfortable with 'sleuthing' but I don't think it's terrible, or an attack on all victims of sexual assault, to admit skepticism about the accusation as it stands now. My opinion may change if/when more facts emerge, and perhaps I would need to re-examine my judgment.
But this is essentially just what our legal system does, and this is a lawsuit that the lawyers want addressed in court. And when those lawyers respond to issues that are certain to come up in court with "we've got blogs" I think there's some reason for skepticism.
― JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:13 (two years ago) link
not that i'm trying to defend how awful and traumatic our legal system is to victims of sexual assault btw.
― JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:16 (two years ago) link
I heard a rumour on this very thread that Bob Dylan "makes" people shovel bees down their dick.
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:23 (two years ago) link
oh great comedy just what we need
xp you're right the legal system reproduces rape culture. i don't understand the point or what it has to do with how ordinary people should talk about a case although the legal system is a great example of *how not to do it*
― Left, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:30 (two years ago) link
If anyone needs some comedy, it's you
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:33 (two years ago) link
i know i need to lighten up and take a joke and stop being so easily offended eh
― Left, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:35 (two years ago) link
the accusation exists in the context of a lawsuit, in our legal system. I think it's reasonable for people to wonder how something is going to hold up in court, especially when the lawyers provide a buffoonish non-answer to pretty obvious questions.
― JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:56 (two years ago) link
Have you wondered enough yet?
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:13 (two years ago) link
yeah I’ll shut up now
― JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:15 (two years ago) link
i dont post bc news like this makes me shut downi can’t even give my energy to speculation of ~any~ kind because it’s just so sad in and of itself i think that’s the bigger picture as i see it - not that anyone’s accusing or exonerating anyone but ilx collectively just has this way of intensely interrogating things immediately re subjects that leave me reeling and sometimes it’d be good if you all just took a breath FIRST and read the room as a whole subject-wise, instead of getting all grassy-knolled out about literally everything all the time
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:49 (two years ago) link
thank you VG, otm
― sleeve, Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:52 (two years ago) link
vg otm
I haven't been posting because - frankly - I'm very much in the "I hope he didn't do this" camp, and I've felt sick ever since the story broke. And tbh I'm grateful to the people posting about the conflict of dates etc. because it gives me some hope that's letting me, like, go about my day and eat meals and not just curl up in a ball as I wait for more information to emerge. Because as a woman - and speaking only for myself - I would feel devastated and betrayed if it turned out that a male artist whose work I love, and who I've felt a deep sense of personal gratitude toward at many points in my life, turned out to have done something like this. So I'm strenuously hoping he didn't do it, awaiting more information, and doing my best not to completely lose it in the meantime. And I haven't posted because I'm afraid if I say something like that I'll be called a rape apologist, and I'm not good at being in internet fights, I tend to take them personally.
Also, one of the things I generally like about ilx is that people know each other and don't have to make the kind of assumptions of bad faith that you see in, like, large-scale Twitter arguments. And yet on this thread I get the impression people are reflexively assuming bad faith anyway, and that bothers me. So I've stayed quiet because I'm uncomfortable when ilx gets like this. It doesn't have anything to do with thinking ilx is supporting rape culture. Maybe for other people it does, idk. We women are not a monolithic group.
― Lily Dale, Friday, 20 August 2021 04:49 (two years ago) link
i feel that *hoping they didnt do it* element too, definitely going through a bit of that as welllily, thank you for stating that so eloquently
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 20 August 2021 04:59 (two years ago) link
that's real, lily <3
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Friday, 20 August 2021 05:23 (two years ago) link
I'll be in the camp of "now that we've had a full circle of accusations (Bob Dylan, lawyers, biographers, internet, twitter, ILX, legal system), can we stop panicking, go back to being patient, and leave the alleged victim and accused their full respective rights ?" Or does it have to be a shitstorm all the time.
― Nabozo, Friday, 20 August 2021 06:21 (two years ago) link
Personally I won’t post about it (unless/until I guess something definitive happens, if it ever does). Posting here was my way of “processing” and dealing with the pit in my stomach. I have more I could discuss about the emotional impact but I guess we have other threads for that, and the time may not be ripe for a while.
― Shallot Shortage 2021 (morrisp), Friday, 20 August 2021 07:05 (two years ago) link
The lawsuit has been permanently withdrawn after the plaintiff asked the federal judge overseeing the case to dismiss it “with prejudice,” meaning it will be permanently closed and cannot be refiled. The move came after she was accused of deleting key messages and threatened with monetary sanctions.
― birdistheword, Friday, 29 July 2022 00:56 (one year ago) link
peak Dylan
https://archive.org/details/s-08b_full/02.+THE+MAN+IN+ME.flac
― | (Latham Green), Tuesday, 17 January 2023 20:16 (one year ago) link
nice!
― corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 18 January 2023 13:41 (one year ago) link
that's a mean cold irons bound too
― corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 18 January 2023 13:45 (one year ago) link
This show is pretty freaking great. Can anyone recommend me a complete live show on archive I need to hear from the Larry Campbell-Charlie Sexton period?
― Unfairport Convention (PBKR), Thursday, 19 January 2023 00:16 (one year ago) link
If I had to pick one, the one at Halle Münsterland in Münster, Germany on October 1, 2000.
Or, if you prefer Dylan on piano, the one at Pauline Davis Pavilion in Red Bluff, CA, USA on October 7, 2002.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:32 (one year ago) link
great recordings thank you
― treeship., Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:44 (one year ago) link
i love that live album with the flute. budokan. that is my idiosyncratic favorite.
― treeship., Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:45 (one year ago) link
he appreciates the plasticity of his own songs and is essentially devoted to live performance. i love that.
― treeship., Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:46 (one year ago) link
elsewhere on this site i have written about being at the 1999 show at tramps in new york, which was great (elvis costello was there and got on stage for an encore, singing 'i shall be released'). great audio from the soundboard. incredible version of Visions of Johanna. crowd VEWRY rowdy.
https://www.wolfgangs.com/music/bob-dylan/audio/20022342-814.html?tid=54412
https://www.boblinks.com/072699r.html
i'm sure i remember the flacs being available somewhere, or on youtube
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 January 2023 10:16 (one year ago) link
Bizarre Bob Dylan melody -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBe8zZ0OKlk
Only actor/singer George Maharis is credited, but there's also folk duo Joe and Eddie, Dionne Warwick and the Animals (their classic line-up) doing a very not-like-the-Animals-at-all rendition of "It Ain't Me, Babe."
― birdistheword, Monday, 26 June 2023 16:40 (nine months ago) link
Enjoying “philosophy of modern song” and an accompanying playlist on YouTube.
― calstars, Thursday, 14 December 2023 16:59 (three months ago) link
Extraordinary
― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 14 December 2023 17:15 (three months ago) link
hoping for some defenses of the indefensible: bob dylan today
― ꙮ (map), Thursday, 14 December 2023 17:18 (three months ago) link