A Thread about the film JFK

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Sutherland’s my new fave on todays rewatch

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 30 May 2021 03:39 (two years ago) link

Wise bunch of birds…

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 30 May 2021 04:35 (two years ago) link

Worth checking out the *alternate* versions of the Sutherland scene, originally it was two different sections of the film; the second half of his monolgue was the film's last scene and he (and Costner) were made-up to look older. Annoyingly the Stone commentary track is all over the version on YouTube but it's better than nowt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glfTYMH59lk

piscesx, Sunday, 30 May 2021 20:15 (two years ago) link

three months pass...

i'm watching this for the first time since it came out. since it was 3 hours and i would have been 8 or so at the time, this makes it a movie i would have went to with my dad, who was not really a movie guy. more of an action movies + braveheart kind of guy. anyway, makes me think he really wanted to see it, i guess.

joe pesci's southern accent is _killing me_

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 7 September 2021 20:08 (two years ago) link

wise buncha birds

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 7 September 2021 20:17 (two years ago) link

one month passes...

very very few people know about this alright

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 1 November 2021 16:28 (two years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Thinking about Kevin Costner JFK anime glasses pic.twitter.com/XdEDPGsug2

— christian (@speederaserhead) November 27, 2020

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 10:40 (two years ago) link

is Karl still watching it

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 23 November 2021 10:54 (two years ago) link

Love how this is being blamed for the bad things in the US.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/jfk-oliver-stone-conspiracy-theory-russian-disinformation-1260223/

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 23:15 (two years ago) link

paywalled for me :(

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 23 November 2021 23:18 (two years ago) link

paywalled for you? or hidden from you deliberately by the fbi?

just staying (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 23 November 2021 23:21 (two years ago) link

Oliver Stone once made brilliant movies like Platoon, which won Oscars for best picture and best director. These days, he’s a tinfoil-hatted fabricator. His new documentary — JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass, premiering on Showtime on, you guessed it, Nov. 22 — is rooted in a big lie. It comes 30 years after the premiere of JFK, a film unrivaled in the annals of American cinematic propaganda. Both are based on the undying delusion that President Kennedy was murdered by the Deep State: The Central Intelligence Agency, backed by the military-industrial complex.

Do you believe that the CIA killed JFK? Millions of Americans suspect so. Let me ask you, then: Why do they believe it?

The tale can be traced to a Russian disinformation operation. It came from the same arsenal of political warfare that convinced half the world that the U.S. Army created AIDS. The one that monkey-wrenched the 2016 election for Donald Trump. The one now flooding the internet with deadly lies about the coronavirus and vaccines. The goals of these campaigns were one and the same: to divide Americans, to pour salt in our self-inflicted wounds, and ultimately to convince you that there is no truth. That crackpot fantasies are cold hard realities. That “conspiracy theories are now conspiracy facts,” as Stone proclaims in JFK Revisited.

Disinformation works best when it contains a kernel of truth. And, in truth, the Kennedy assassination is the black hole of American history. It has sucked better minds than Stone’s down into darkness. It has taught generations of Americans to be highly skeptical of the Official Government Version of events. It made the grassy knoll our town commons.

But what you believe about it boils down to this: Either Lee Harvey Oswald, trained by the United States Marines as a sharpshooter before he defected to the Soviet Union, got off a million-to-one shot in Dallas. He acted alone. Or he was an instrument of a conspiracy so immense that it staggers the mind.

As the new documentary opens, Stone paces down Dealey Plaza in Dallas, where President Kennedy was killed, the same place where QAnon crazies gathered recently to await the miraculous resurrection of JFK Jr. and the divine reinauguration of Trump. The director promises his audience that he is about to solve the murder mystery, to “piece together what really happened that day and discover the reasons why.”

Brace yourself: he doesn’t.

The dark beast of JFK Revisited is Allen Dulles, a founding father of the CIA and its director from February 1953 to November 1961. I know a fair amount about Dulles; my history of the CIA, Legacy of Ashes, lays a multitude of sins at his feet. Dulles often grievously misled Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy. He oversaw CIA coups in Iran and Guatemala which ushered in dictatorships. His top officers tried to kill Fidel Castro, enlisting the Mafia. He blithely convinced JFK to carry out the disastrous invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs in April 1961, which was his downfall as Director of Central Intelligence.

Stone pegs Dulles as a presiding genius of the plot against the president. To begin building this case, he tells us that Dulles and the CIA backed a failed military coup aimed at assassinating President Charles de Gaulle of France. That’s another lie spun by Moscow.

Like the cold-war CIA, the KGB paid editors and reporters around the world to print stories that could advance the Kremlin’s international agendas. In the late 1950’s, it created a directorate to undermine America. Department D — D as in dezinformatsiya — aimed to bend and shape public opinion, and above all to defame the United States. The Department of Disinformation was the world’s first industrial factory of fake news.

A KGB-scripted story about the CIA’s plot to kill De Gaulle first appeared in a daily newspaper, Paese Sera, published in Rome and backed by the Italian Communist Party, a few days after the Bay of Pigs. It was republished in Moscow by the Soviet party organ, Pravda; then in France, and finally across the globe. That was, and is, the M.O. of Russian disinformation operations: start a fire, fan the flames, and blow the smoke around the world.

Six years later, Paese Sera planted the seed that flowered into JFK. And therein lies a tale. (One first told in 2001 by the historian Max Holland in The Wilson Quarterly, a now-defunct political science journal.)

On March 1, 1967, the New Orleans district attorney, Jim Garrison, arrested Clay Shaw, the director of the city’s International Trade Mart and a somewhat-closeted gay man, and charged him with a central role in a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy. The D.A. told reporters that what happened in Dallas had been “a homosexual thrill-killing.” Three days later, Paese Sera named Shaw as a conduit for CIA funds for espionage and dirty tricks in Rome. The story, crafted by the KGB, ricocheted around the world, landing in New York on the front page of a New Left weekly, the National Guardian, on March 18.

Garrison seized upon it. He fed the falsehood to a friendly newspaper reporter in New Orleans and it landed on page one. He told the world that Shaw was a longtime CIA operative. (He wasn’t, though he had been a casual part-time contact on questions of commerce, one among some 150,000 Americans who volunteered information to the cold-war CIA.) The prosecutor then doubled down. He proclaimed that the CIA had plotted to kill Kennedy and then covered up the conspiracy, that Oswald had been under its control, that the agency was “infinitely more powerful than the Gestapo,” and that it had masterminded a coup d’etat in America in the name of anticommunism.

On Feb. 6, 1969, Garrison put Clay Shaw on trial. His witnesses were a parade of perjurers from the seamier quarters of New Orleans. He presented no evidence tying the CIA to his case. But in his summation, he asked the jurors to strike a righteous blow against the Deep State’s “murder of the truth.” They took 54 minutes to acquit.

Garrison’s tragicomedy had two lasting effects on the United States. The first was immediate: After he announced his charges, the number of Americans who believed that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy skyrocketed. A majority still believe it. The second took 20 years.

Garrison spent a decade turning his case into a book called On The Trail Of The Assassins: One Man’s Quest to Solve the Murder of President Kennedy. The co-conspirators in this opus included the CIA, the FBI, the Dallas police department, the Warren Commission, the Secret Service, anti-Castro Cubans, the United States Army, and the Navy pathologists who autopsied JFK. Fifteen publishers rejected it until it was picked up by William Schaap and Ellen Ray at Sheridan Square Press in 1988. (The couple had worked with Phillip Agee, a CIA defector, publishing Covert Action Information Bulletin, a magazine devoted to exposing the Agency’s operations and officers. Agee received a strong assist from Russian intelligence, according to KGB records. No evidence whatsoever links Schaap and Ray, now both deceased, to the Russians.)

On The Trail Of The Assassins would prove to be a hit with the public. Shortly before its publication, as Schaap later recounted, “at a film festival in Havana, we ran into Oliver Stone. And Ellen said to him, ‘Have I got a property for you!’ Because we knew he was an assassination freak, we gave him an advance copy of the book…. Of course, Oliver Stone won’t admit to any of this!”

JFK and its new sequel are, with artistic embellishments, cinematic transcriptions of Jim Garrison’s delusions. The original movie convinced millions more Americans that the version of history wrought by Stone and Garrison was true. National surveys taken after JFK was released showed that three-quarters of those polled believed the CIA had murdered the President. And that, along with the end of the cold war, provoked Congress to begin declassifying millions of records relating to the assassination — a task that remains incomplete nearly three decades later. Both Trump and President Biden have delayed disclosures required under law, though a new set of documents is set to be unwrapped before Christmas.

I’ve spent half my life reporting, writing, and reading about the CIA and American intelligence. I remember the Kennedy assassination; I’ve studied the evidence. And I can’t tell you that there wasn’t a conspiracy. Maybe it was the Russians. Could have been the Cubans. Might have been the Mafia. Maybe there’s a mind-blowing bombshell in the still-classified archives of the government. But I seriously doubt it.

I can tell you for a fact that our democracy is suffocating under an avalanche of disinformation. Trump won the 2020 election! Covid vaccines are seeded with microchips! Democrats are blood-sucking pedophile communists! 9/11 was an inside job! Our body politic is being poisoned by lies. They stalk the land like brain-eating zombies. And we can’t seem to kill them.

We have a moral obligation to call bullshit when we see it. Especially when public figures promote lies for profit. Stone’s JFK films are fantasies. Conspiracy theories are not facts. They’re a kind of collective psychosis. And they’re driving our country down the road to hell.

In This Article: CIA, conspiracy theories, FBI, JFK, Oliver Stone

just staying (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 23 November 2021 23:22 (two years ago) link

the whole thing I never understood is the whole thing seems to be that the CIA killed him because he was a threat to the military industrial complex and US foreign policy which I never got the sense he was in any real way?

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 00:13 (two years ago) link

fuck yeah!

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 00:53 (two years ago) link

xp I guess it depends on which Kennedy you focus on, the guy who gave speeches about ending colonialism and was pissed off about the Bay of Pigs, or the guy running to Nixon’s right on Cuba and missiles. The Cuba podcast Blowback definitely leans toward the former, but they provided an interesting contrast of Kennedy promoting peace and understanding post-Bay of Pigs, and at the same time delivering hard-line speeches about intolerance for Communism.

JoeStork, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 01:24 (two years ago) link

read the devil's chessboard! it's the best! it explains the theory more like a web of things that were going on, not just that a guy is a threat so let's murder him

certified juice therapist (harbl), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 01:32 (two years ago) link

Love how this is being blamed for the bad things in the US.

this is the funniest tweet of the week

Twitter allowed a hashtag pushing a conspiracy theory about the CIA and the assassination of President John F. Kennedy to trend nationally. It appears that it was due to an account urging users to get the hashtag trending. pic.twitter.com/oRcdW9VRjN

— Alex Kaplan (@AlKapDC) November 22, 2021

papal hotwife (milo z), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 01:33 (two years ago) link

harbl otm

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 03:21 (two years ago) link

how's your mousse

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 03:25 (two years ago) link

Honestly the ~only~ time I have any time for Oliver Stone is when he is feeding at the JFK trough.

Weiner sounds like he hates fun

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 03:37 (two years ago) link

um how soon we forget The Doors, the finest motion picture of our times

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 03:42 (two years ago) link

16 yo me agrees w you

but jfk is the only Stone movie i can watch

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 03:54 (two years ago) link

a little surprised jacobin of all places ran it, but this is a great interview w/ stone:

https://jacobinmag.com/2021/11/oliver-stone-talks-to-jacobin-about-jfks-killing

it’s been a while since i went on my jfk book reading spree, but basically everything he says here is solid as far as i can tell

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 19:32 (two years ago) link

However, this is, as we say, bullshit:

Now, you can argue that we don’t know what would have happened, but the man, Kennedy, we try to establish, was an anti-colonialist. He’d been involved in Algeria, he’d been involved in Vietnam as early as 1954. And he said repeatedly these Third World countries needed their independence, and he was against the concept of a Cold War, against communism being used as an excuse to suppress independence — in the Congo, in Vietnam, in Laos, in Algeria, all over the world. And in Latin America, especially, he was very strong with his Alliance for Progress.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 19:37 (two years ago) link

It’s a unique spin on Boomer Camelot fetishism.

papal hotwife (milo z), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 19:44 (two years ago) link

DO NOT. FORGET. YOUR DYING KING.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 19:46 (two years ago) link

the whole thing I never understood is the whole thing seems to be that the CIA killed him because he was a threat to the military industrial complex and US foreign policy which I never got the sense he was in any real way?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, November 24, 2021 12:13 AM (nineteen hours ago)

this is a fair criticism and it’s true that oliver stone does go overboard in sentimentalizing jfk himself. (though it’s nothing compared to what he did with jim garrison; the anti-conspiracy writers basically got that one right, as far as i can tell.)

but i saw a comment about this somewhere that I’ve never been able to get out of my head. roughly: “the important question isn’t whether noam chomsky thinks jfk was a threat to the foreign policy status quo, it’s whether *allen dulles* thought he was.”

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 20:04 (two years ago) link

Right, and Kennedy’s true foreign policy intentions may have been less of a concern than his level of anger with the CIA for making him look like an asshole.

JoeStork, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 20:27 (two years ago) link

A new piece from ILX vet Dorian L

https://unherd.com/2021/11/oliver-stones-seductive-conspiracies/

Ned Raggett, Monday, 29 November 2021 13:15 (two years ago) link

This is the real reason why they killed him pic.twitter.com/bvQR7zY1CQ

— ol’ stocky 🎄 (@oldstocky) December 5, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 5 December 2021 20:50 (two years ago) link

i keep checking this thread thinking it's bumped because the white house have decided to release the secret jfk assassination records they won't release because of the pandemic

they have us waiting on the edge of our seats

Punster McPunisher, Sunday, 5 December 2021 20:57 (two years ago) link

has anyone watched the Stone doc

should i bother or no

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 5 December 2021 21:13 (two years ago) link

only bother if it sticks with the one true theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error

mark s, Sunday, 5 December 2021 21:39 (two years ago) link

xp i watched it & dont regret it

theres some interesting stuff, never knew abt the potential assassination attmpts in chi and tampa and potential parallel patsies that wouldve taken the fall in each instance

johnny crunch, Monday, 6 December 2021 02:25 (two years ago) link

I just found out I kept Oliver Stone waiting because the interview I did with Glenn Greenwald went long (Greenwald is supposed to meet Stone).

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) December 8, 2021

mark s, Wednesday, 8 December 2021 21:06 (two years ago) link

he'll look fuckin ridiculous without his beard!

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 December 2021 03:20 (two years ago) link

four months pass...

Ganz hates fun.

it has a terrible script, ridiculous performances, and is just chock full of total fabrications that many people have taken to be the truth story of the assassination

— John Ganz (@lionel_trolling) April 25, 2022

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 07:48 (one year ago) link

he's right tho it's garbage

mark s, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 08:44 (one year ago) link

I can argue about the performances but I mean do people really believe that JFK wasn't killed by Oswald because of that film? That just seems totally wrong to me.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 09:03 (one year ago) link

Was watching Apollo 13 the other day and thinking that the mission control cast in that movie and Costner's legal team in JFK are absolutely top-notch, A+ collections of 90s-era character actors ("hey, it's that guy! And that guy! And that guy!!").

Sam Weller, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 09:23 (one year ago) link

Apollo 13 has the wrong ho-ho.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 April 2022 09:39 (one year ago) link

the only good takedown of the magic bullet theory is on seinfeld

mark s, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 09:51 (one year ago) link

I can argue about the performances but I mean do people really believe that JFK wasn't killed by Oswald because of that film? That just seems totally wrong to me.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, April 26, 2022 5:03 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

People absolutely believe that. Maybe in a world where gunmen don't storm pizza places over message board posts, or where people don't take veterinary parasite medicines because of podcasters, or a world in which there weren't 10 investigations into the Benghazi attack, etc.

peace, man, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 11:31 (one year ago) link

Yeah but I doubt they believe it specifically because they watched the Stone flick

Deez NFTs (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 26 April 2022 14:06 (one year ago) link

ganz's point (if anyone cares) is not that jfk changed anyone's mind over oswald solo vs larger conspiracy, it's that it foregrounded one really crappy and dumb version of the conspiracy (clay shaw gay orgy dunniit) and plus added a bunch of stuff known to be not true

also look at this misleading glamorising shit:
https://i.redd.it/tgdjp5f0som61.jpg vs https://i.redd.it/60lce6x2s0cz.jpg

mark s, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 14:13 (one year ago) link

it's true, Pesci looks worse than the real Ferrie

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 April 2022 14:14 (one year ago) link

todd haynes shd remake this film

mark s, Tuesday, 26 April 2022 14:16 (one year ago) link


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