Israel to World: "Suck It."

Thank you, plax(ico). YOur reply was helpful and if the discourse in the USA really is shifting in a significant way, I will be highly grateful to those who helped make it so.

However, I will note here that in the very midst of that powerful commentary by Mr. Velshi that you linked to, while reciting a long littany of Israeli human rights abuses, from explicitly apartheid policies, to the genocidal practices like refusing medical care and supplies into Gaza, he literally states that "Hamas may not be in the long term interests of the Palestinians". If VHS were to have written the same thing in this thread, I might be forgiven for suspecting this statement would be singled out for scorn such as "no one gives a fuck about Hamas" and given as proof of both-sidesism.

yes but VHS doesn't have corporate sponsors i hope

if he did, then saying that would be 'selling out' in his case

dude. plax is moving the conversation forward and you’re speculating on what the haters would say if VHS had written something that he didn’t write? you’re through the looking glass man.

in any case, i am not so interested in VHS account nor do I think it defines the terms of debate in any meaningful way.

Here is another piece on the us Israel relationship:

https://www.vox.com/22440197/us-israel-democrats-alliance-partisanship-gaza

The national movement has understandably given precedence to collective interests, but as a result, basic individual rights—the freedom to think, speak, work, live, move, and prosper—have been relegated to the margins. Palestinian leaders must give much greater consideration to such issues, particularly because the PA’s record has hardly offered a seductive model of good government, better life, or greater freedom. Hamas’s rule in Gaza (Hamas wrested control after violent confrontations with the PA in June 2007) has had even less appeal, bringing further suffering and impoverishment to, and a continuous corrosion of the quality of daily life for, the more than two million Gazans. Palestinians in much of the near diaspora, such as those living in Lebanon and Syria, face increasingly harsh conditions, as well. Whatever Israel’s responsibility for the Palestinians’ plight, the Palestinian leadership must bear its own share of responsibility for its people’s safety and welfare.

From https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2021-02-16/palestinian-reckoning.

Whatever Israel’s responsibility for the Palestinians’ plight

Not a good remark. Passes over a huge swath of Israel's responsibility in silence.

However, I'm about ready to stand back for a while an let the conversation roll on w/o my posting to it.

If anyone wants the whole article feel free to ask me, I'll send it via message. Agha has been one of my sources on the conflict and represents the sort of precision and empathy too often missing from the conflict's coverage.

Not a good remark. Passes over a huge swath of Israel's responsibility in silence.

― What's It All About, Althea? (Aimless), Saturday, May 22, 2021 6:40 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Agha is a Palestinian (I think Samih Khalidi is too), I think we can give him the benefit of the doubt he knows of the long list of atrocities being committed by Israel.

https://www.972mag.com/hamas-gaza-jerusalem-protests/

here's a good piece that explains the context of hamas' actions very well

Hussain Agha is not in fact Palestinian, but is an expert with a long history of involvement in israel palestine negotiations. Khalidi is.

he doesn't purport to be palestinian nor am i aware that he ever lived there (he lives in england) so i'm not sure why you thought that.

this full page ad published in the NYT today??? pic.twitter.com/NGtygtEinD

— Maffy (@matthewduchesne) May 22, 2021

he doesn't purport to be palestinian nor am i aware that he ever lived there (he lives in england) so i'm not sure why you thought that.

― plax (ico), Saturday, May 22, 2021 8:17 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Me too, must have misread. However, that does not changes much of what they say in the article.

hordes of beturbaned muslamics are menacing our cities, throwing explosive devices at jewish americans while ululating and screaming allahu akhbar and the media and law enforcement are completely ignoring it due to political correctness

— Rich Lather (@allahliker) May 23, 2021

Me too, must have misread. However, that does not changes much of what they say in the article.

― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 23 May 2021 01:27 (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

no but it was you that offered it as a corrective to another poster only a few posts ago and mentioned it twice in a way that suggested it lent the article more authority.

Agha is of course an expert in this area and probably worth reading, though I understand that he has not been involved directly in the peace process since hamas have come to power and his frustrations with hamas in general should probably be read with this in mind.

people itt have linked to some very illuminating articles by palestinians and the age of social media has allowed their voices and direct testimonies to be heard more directly without the filter of the mainstream media which i would guess has also contributed to shifting public perceptions around the world. and I guess i would just gently suggest that you reflect on how it was that you sought out a paywalled article by an oxford university professor in foreign policy magazine and came to elevate it as having a "precision and empathy too often missing" and you might discover why other posters are finding you so frustrating to argue with here.

If VHS were to have written the same thing in this thread, I might be forgiven for suspecting this statement would be singled out for scorn such as "no one gives a fuck about Hamas" and given as proof of both-sidesism.

― What's It All About, Althea? (Aimless), Saturday, 22 May 2021 bookmarkflaglink

I said "only cunts give a shit about Hamas". Totally stand by that. "Whatever Israel's responsibility.." after the events this week is a disgusting remark. Fuck knows what else is in that link VHS has posted.

the piece VHS linked is from before the current conflict (seems to be from february?)

i read the whole thing and it's mostly detailing a history of the PLO/PA's negotiation errors and the weaknesses of its current positions. the criticisms aren't totally unreasonable or anything but don't really account for just how constrained their position has been forever, so reading it just makes me think "yes, historically they haven't always played their hand optimally, so what?". it concludes that 'a new approach' is needed by the PLO/PA but doesn't really identify what that new approach could possibly be, other than that obvious problems like Hamas/Fatah tensions need to be solved

not really the most illuminating and just serves to emphasise how bad the situation is for Palestine

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/world/middleeast/palestinians-unrest-israel.html

"In interviews, many Palestinians in the West Bank said Hamas had done more to further their cause over the past 11 days of violence than the Palestinian Authority had for years.

“Hamas has once again proven to its people that it is the only political party that will stand up and fight the Israeli occupation,” said Mutaz Khalil, 30, who took part in a demonstration in Ramallah’s Al-Manar Square on Friday that Israeli soldiers later dispersed with live rounds, tear gas and rubber bullets.

Though the Palestinians’ grievances with Israel remained unsolved by the war, there had still been one crucial result, he said: Around the world, people on social media and in the streets had rallied to the Palestinian cause, forcing a small but meaningful shift in, among other places, the political debate over Israel and the occupied territories among Democrats in the United States.

“I believe that this war has reintroduced our conflict to the world,” Mr. Khalil said, “and has once again illustrated our struggle.”"

ok so you’re pro-murder got it

sorry could not resist

"the piece VHS linked is from before the current conflict (seems to be from february?)"

VHS is sharing it now, after the past week though.

comparing VHS to Marjorie Taylor Greene is certainly a sign of arguing in good faith

― groovemaaan, Saturday, 22 May 2021 bookmarkflaglink

It's not as on the nose as MTG but there are enough elements of her racism and lack of empathy disguised as nuance and concern trolling in regards to Hamas. That + the bullshit on Venezuela and Morales overtime and you see the pieces fitting in.

what the fuck is that tweet

Agha is of course an expert in this area and probably worth reading, though I understand that he has not been involved directly in the peace process since hamas have come to power and his frustrations with hamas in general should probably be read with this in mind.

people itt have linked to some very illuminating articles by palestinians and the age of social media has allowed their voices and direct testimonies to be heard more directly without the filter of the mainstream media which i would guess has also contributed to shifting public perceptions around the world. and I guess i would just gently suggest that you reflect on how it was that you sought out a paywalled article by an oxford university professor in foreign policy magazine and came to elevate it as having a "precision and empathy too often missing" and you might discover why other posters are finding you so frustrating to argue with here.

― plax (ico), Sunday, May 23, 2021 3:11 AM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I care about a certain kind of expertise, especially in an age of brutes spreading so much misinformation, especially about Palestine. And posting this article wasn’t meant to invalidate what other posters have posted or whatever. You are seeing conflict where there is not. I’m just trying to show that criticism of Hamas or those liberations movements can be valid and in good faith.

So much for self reflection then

thanks for your posts here, plax

it's good to learn that criticism of hamas can be valid

whether it is sound is another question

People are showing up for Palestinians not because they think they are uniquely oppressed, but because their cause is uniquely orphaned. This week’s column. https://t.co/amrLihTqse

— Nesrine Malik (@NesrineMalik) May 24, 2021

so glad we spend untold millions having our cops trained by IDF

Israeli media is reporting that police launched operation Law & Order to “settle the score” with Palestinian citizen who participated in uprisings during the two weeks of the war in Gaza by conducting mass arrests. The goal is 500 arrestee. Among the charges, “online incitement.” https://t.co/uMUPbSkO3e pic.twitter.com/O9YvpaLhQJ

— Abraham Gutman 🔥 (@abgutman) May 24, 2021

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/world/middleeast/palestinians-unrest-israel.html

"In interviews, many Palestinians in the West Bank said Hamas had done more to further their cause over the past 11 days of violence than the Palestinian Authority had for years.

“Hamas has once again proven to its people that it is the only political party that will stand up and fight the Israeli occupation,” said Mutaz Khalil, 30, who took part in a demonstration in Ramallah’s Al-Manar Square on Friday that Israeli soldiers later dispersed with live rounds, tear gas and rubber bullets.

Though the Palestinians’ grievances with Israel remained unsolved by the war, there had still been one crucial result, he said: Around the world, people on social media and in the streets had rallied to the Palestinian cause, forcing a small but meaningful shift in, among other places, the political debate over Israel and the occupied territories among Democrats in the United States.

“I believe that this war has reintroduced our conflict to the world,” Mr. Khalil said, “and has once again illustrated our struggle.”"

― plax (ico), Sunday, 23 May 2021 10:41 (yesterday) link

This is exactly what I was trying to say upthread, that concern trolling claims that Hamas "doesn't really have the best interests of Palestinians at heart" are DOA, because Palestinians basically have the option of taking it and being ignored or taking it and fighting back in their lopsided way that isn't "effective" in any direct sense but garners world attention. Because, as I said above, before we weren't talking about it and now we are.

In that sense, I believe Israel's approach is not only cruel but stupid in the long run, although it is a stupidity that gets papered over by a massive structural advantage.

the pessimistic side of me things that they're actually very much winning and that wannabe oppressive forces in the u.s., notably the ones in power now, are taking note. they wouldn't be above doing this shit to the underclasses here.

in fact, are doing it, in a much softer, slower, quieter, more broadly distributed way.

yeah I was about to make a very boring and obvious post!

israel didn't invent any of this of course

i tend towards pessimism in general and in this case it's v easy especially given the complicity of basically everything where most/all of us live... but there is *so much* international solidarity with palestine (largely unaffiliated with or in spite of the familiar institutions of The Left as recognised in this part of the world, for all that they like to take credit after the fact...) which isn't going away in spite of all the intensifying repression and censorship, and for everything I see there is so much more going on that's invisible to me and people like me, so many people who have been through hell still have hope for liberation so why shouldn't I(/we)? and fatalism about the inevitability of the worst can so easily become a sort of justification for it as we've seen over and over on so many issues

that's a nice thing to read, ty.

Thanks for your posts in this thread, plax, was camping for the weekend, but many OTM posts.

since we're doing patronising map-making prescriptions though, if anyone is interested this is a very good resource by Forensic Architecture showing the history of israel palestines changing 'borders' since 1967. Eyal Weizman who founded forensic architecture is israeli and his book 'hollow land' is a brilliant discussion of this topic.

https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/map-en.html

― plax (ico), Monday, 17 May 2021 06:59 (one week ago) link

The above is from way upthread now but i just want to thank plax so much for posting this.

This weekend I gathered my family and read the entire presentation to them word for word, scrolling down and watching the maps reveal, onion-like, the layers upon layers of unremitting and comprehensive dismemberment of Palestinian space.

The effect was profound... especially on my daughter's boyfriend, whose first cousins are settlers.

Oh and I went ahead and ordered Hollow Land.

Amazing book, I join the recommendations upthread.

Basma Ghalayini, editor of Palestine+100: Stories From a Century After the Nakba, had this to say in an NYT Guest Essay titled "A Gazan’s View on Hamas: It’s Not Complicated," two days ago:

If any party other than Hamas were in power in Gaza right now, it might have tried to lobby for international support for the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a few days or weeks longer before launching rockets on Israel. But seeing its fellow countrymen and women made homeless, time and time again, would ultimately have forced the hand of even a non-Hamas government in Gaza, either drawing it into the fight or making it so unpopular for not getting involved that it’d be forced out of power. That’s why to focus on Hamas is to miss the point, and to reinforce the myth that the conflict is, in some fundamental manner, about the group. The conflict is about the Israeli occupation.

For those able to breach the paywall, here's the link

It shouldn't be like this:

A birthday party among the ruins in Gaza - Palestine pic.twitter.com/DVWP7KYqTq

— Aseel Mustafa (@AseelMustafa_) May 26, 2021

https://shtpost.substack.com/p/when-they-fartlow-we-farthigh

Oh cool bullying apologism.

even Rachel Riley and David Baddiel have kept up a dignified silence on this one

Oh cool bullying apologism.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, May 28, 2021 6:25 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is as disingenuous as Eve Fartlow's accusations of a "digital pogrom" being perpetrated against her. Guess what? In the real world, if you hold shitty opinions and voice them publicly, people have the right to mercilessly make fun of you for being a shitty person and an absolute fool. If that's what constitutes a "pogrom," then I wonder what Fartlow knows of actual pogroms throughout history. Not much, evidently.