Israel to World: "Suck It."

Only Nethanyahu thugs would make arguments that storming a sacred space during one of the holiest celebrations isn’t provocation... and sure enough Hamas responded ~exactly to this particular event as opposed to 3 months ago when occupation was on-going just as much as it is today, but any bedfellow is okay to sleep with as long as you get to live your activist fantasy online.

Then please go to Gaza, brave keyboard warrior

— Yitzak Ben Aaron (@yitzak_ben) May 14, 2021

there is apparently no conceivable level of resistance and self defence here that both-sidesers will accept. keyboard pacifists are at least as bad as keyboard warriors

When that 'self-defence' has done nothing to concretely help Palestinian people, and the perpetrators are bent on genocidal ideas, are the moral equivalent of Boko Haram and ISIS, and is the arm of a foreign agressive state 2000 km away, then no I do not think it's acceptable, nor do I believe it is to be self-defence. The Israeli government and the IDF being as dangerous, racist and extremist as Hamas doesn't justify anything. But sure align yourself with organisations that kills homosexuals, the story absolutely needs you to choose a good guy and a bad guy, after all it's entertainment for keyboard warriors like yourself.

VHS no one here is 'aligning themselves' with Hamas that I can see.

True, there is just justifications of their actions and militant chants that call for the killing of Israelis.

You've used your keyboard more than anyone tonight.

shocking that the poster who’s a flagrant ass on the Venezuela thread has some Very Serious Thoughts on this thread too

Ah yes that time I argued that Maduro’s governement was a brutal regime that ought to never exist anymore. How terrible of me.

lol VHS when comrade alphabet called out your soft-pedalling of the murder at the Al-Aqsa mosque as 'provocation' - obviously saying that word isn't harsh enough - you pretended that he meant the IDF's action didn't RISE to the level of provocation - 'aligning' him with Netanyahu thugs! Why?? Actually forget it, I don't care. People are hurting on this thread, trying to understand. Nobody's holding up Hamas as some exemplar of political morality. Get off your high horse man.

Azza Slimene is a US-based Tunisian super model. She has 1.4 million followers on Instagram. Yesterday she invited a Palestinian man from Gaza to talk about the situation there. Today this happened. pic.twitter.com/389z9ThMlB

— Rania Said (@rania_tn) May 14, 2021

lol VHS when comrade alphabet called out your soft-pedalling of the murder at the Al-Aqsa mosque as 'provocation' - obviously saying that word isn't harsh enough - you pretended that he meant the IDF's action didn't RISE to the level of provocation - 'aligning' him with Netanyahu thugs! Why?? Actually forget it, I don't care. People are hurting on this thread, trying to understand. Nobody's holding up Hamas as some exemplar of political morality. Get off your high horse man.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, May 14, 2021 6:41 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well surely if no one is defending Hamas' actions I can continue criticizing their poor treatment of Palestinian peoples and their strategy towards Israel.

I am not the only one, on ilxor and elsewhere, that have used the word 'provocation' to describe the actions by Netanyahu. Do I believe these provocations are aligning with a genocidal desire to erase the Palestinian territories? Absolutely I do. I am just making the case that Hamas responded to that event specifically (and the expulsions from Sheikh Jarrah) when it decided to launch hundreds of rockets into Israel.

Noted!

fuck hamas but they are not isis or boko haram ffs

I am just making the case that Hamas responded to that event specifically (and the expulsions from Sheikh Jarrah) when it decided to launch hundreds of rockets into Israel.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, 14 May 2021 bookmarkflaglink

How should Palestinians respond to this?

why don't they suggest some kind of boycott or stage a non-violent protest at the border or something who could object to that

I don’t think this avenue is particularly useful. It’s not up to Palestinians to fix the situation. They’ve done everything they can and been crushed. VHS as I read him was asserting that the rockets were specifically in retaliation for Al Aqsa rather than anything before, or a cumulative response. I’m not sure why that’s an important distinction. Surely it could be, and almost certainly is, both.

otm

For me it feels gross to call Israel a “settler colony“ and it’s depressing how a big part of the (twitter) left is seemingly ok with it

Israel is a settler colony

its existence as a consequence of European antisemitism makes it unique but that doesn't change what it is or how it works. the founders were quite explicit about this

So that’s the Gaza offices of Associated Press and Al Jazeera being told they’re about to be bombed.

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) May 15, 2021

BREAKING: Al Jazeera forced to broadcast destruction of its own media offices in Gaza, along with all equipment left inside

pic.twitter.com/wwqOk6km7H

— Double Down News (@DoubleDownNews) May 15, 2021

w-ow

just read this in the Guardian: "Palestinian fatalities from strikes on Gaza stand at more than 132, including 32 children."

(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/15/israel-gaza-west-bank-rockets-jerusalem-warplanes)

Who should we be morally equating Israel to?

assuming that's a rhetorical question all states & companies providing weapons & support are responsible including the countries most or all of us are typing from. "as bad as..." is a hopeless dead end

yes, I wasn't actually asking for comparisons, rather pushing back against VHS's unhelpful invocation of ISIS and Boko Haram as Hamas's moral equivalents, whatever that means

Far right jihadists who use terrorism and war as a tactic, I believe the moral equivalent is there. Another moral equivalent would be IDF and the right wing governement of Israel, who just happened to be better armed, but seek just as much as Hamas the extermination of the other people.

you’d think the purposeful targeting of foreign media might cause the u.s. to step in but noooo

the value of these comparisons is in the potential response they would warrant or provoke were they to be taken seriously and I've tried to exploit this myself by e.g. calling trump fans nazis. especially considering how expansively "hamas" is being defined by the state of israel and in our media we don't need comparisons to some of the worst people in the world

well, we have now scolded them so they should stop now xp

We have communicated directly to the Israelis that ensuring the safety and security of journalists and independent media is a paramount responsibility.

— Jen Psaki (@PressSec) May 15, 2021

can we not with the fucking "jihadism" and "terrorism" please this the language of empire

On reading VHS's reasonable response, I think my take is that I don't personally find "moral equivalency" all that helpful as a concept. IMO too many political arguments proceed along these kinds of analogical lines and end up being about an abstract principle (e.g., the use of "terror" which is distinct from "war") instead of the local details.

OTOH I also call trump fans and other fascists nazis so idk

you’d think the purposeful targeting of foreign media might cause the u.s. to step in but noooo

Doesn't this happen every time Israel decides to bomb Gaza? I mean the purposeful targeting of foreign media not the US stepping in (as if).

2014:

17 journalists were killed in the conflict,[561][562] of which five were off-duty and two (from Associated Press) were covering a bomb disposal team's efforts to defuse an unexploded Israeli artillery shell when it exploded.[563][564] In several cases, the journalists were killed while having markings distinguishing them as press on their vehicles or clothing.[565][566] IDF stated that in one case it had precise information that a vehicle marked "TV" that was hit killing one alleged journalist was in military use.[567][568] Several media outlets, including the offices of Al-Jazeera, were hit. The International Federation of Journalists has condemned the attacks as "appalling murders and attacks".[569] Journalists are considered civilians and should not be targeted under international humanitarian law.[570] The Israeli army said it does not target journalists, and that it contacts news media "in order to advise them which areas to avoid during the conflict".[564] Israel has made foreign journalists sign a waiver stating that it is not responsible for their safety in Gaza, which Reporters Without Borders calls contrary to international law.[571][572][573]

can we not with the fucking "jihadism" and "terrorism" please this the language of empire

ok dude

I can quickly accept that "terrorism" is the language of empire, imposed upon a struggle for self-determination and against oppression. But don't both al-Q and ISIS self-identify as being engaged in a "jihad" which encompasses specific political, and not just theological, aims? Isn't their claim upon the concept of "jihad" as being sanctioned, even demanded, by Islam, a central piece of their ideology as political organizations? If not, I have been terribly misled.

jihad means a lot of things

right, and so... about "jihadism" then?

jihad can be that moment when you know you're going to eat the entire bag of doritos

imperial construct xp

specifically a useful way to homogenise a whole range of unconnected and frequently opposed movements and people into a single world-threatening menace in order to make preemptive violence against them seem self evidently necessary. tellingly it is now used by china and russia and syria for their purposes in the exact same way the US and its allies use it

Hamas leaders themselves use the word.

KM otm.

This isn’t about Hamas. So you guys’ parsing of the meaning of jihad is beside the point.

It’s not about ISIL or Al-Qaeda. It’s about Israel and its military occupation.

Maybe we should parse the meaning of the word “democracy”. Israel uses it about itself - that must be what Israel is!

Aimless what’s a democracy?

Because I’m starting to think I’ve been misled!!

all of these political leaders seem to be...lying!!

the point is there is no ideology of jihadism there are many people and movements engaging in what they perceive or claim to be jihad including those who have been supported by or aligned with the US at times but as soon as the label is applied they become an existential threat in need of extermination hence the readiness of oppressive regimes including israel & the US to wield it

just seen the latest expression of genocidist settler solidarity from the scum in washington. death to america