Are people, generally speaking, smart or stupid?

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interesting/telling that IQ believers seemingly never have to explain themselves in this way

Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 17:14 (two months ago) link

I'm sure a lot of QAnon people believe it for some combination of the reasons that it's rewarding to believe, it connects them to other people, it gives them a reason to hate people they already hate, they're just bored and it's fun and engrossing, etc. I don't think you need particularly high intelligence to think it doesn't make sense that Donald Trump is secretly the leader of the resistance against a celebrity child porn ring or whatever. I'm sure a plenty of not remarkably intelligent people would instantly pick that out as nonsense.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:17 (two months ago) link

So it's another thread about the US. Great.

Authoritarian Steaks (Tom D.), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:18 (two months ago) link

you used the words "erosion" and "now"

what many people fail to understand is that when critical thinking skills erode, they do not disappear. rather, the eroded particles of critical thinking are blown or washed away to other locations, where they collect in loose agglomerations, such as critical thinking skill dunes or the deltas of critical thinking skills deposited at the effluence of rivers.

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:18 (two months ago) link

interesting/telling that IQ believers seemingly never have to explain themselves in this way

― Left, Monday, May 3, 2021 12:14 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

OTM, and there are absolutely some very strong emotional/non-rational reasons for a person to cling to IQ tests (typically their own) as a measure of worthiness if not superiority.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:20 (two months ago) link

So it's another thread about the US. Great.

― Authoritarian Steaks (Tom D.), Monday, May 3, 2021 12:18 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, it is a thread about stupidity tbf.

You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:20 (two months ago) link

when i was in 8th grade my friends and i found an IQ test program on an old classroom computer, and we all took it and were elated to discover that we rated off-the-charts supergenius scores, then one of us realized that it had been calibrated for 2nd graders, and then none of us had the guts to take it with the correct settings.

nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:22 (two months ago) link

Ledges post about values is interesting.

The quote (apologies for missing spaces) is hume's so it's hardly a new idea, though I almost never see it discussed and I don't know if that's because it obscure, it goes without saying, or it's generally dismissed.

Are liberals dumb for supporting welfare policies? No. Are conservatives dumb for not? No. Any evidence that they work is largely beside the point and wouldn't sway the most rational conservative. Ok that's a simplification but you get the point.

I took drugs recently and why doesn't the UK? (ledge), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:32 (two months ago) link

ILX has had many discussions of IQ tests in the past. The general attitude expressed toward them has ranged from skeptical to dismissive. There's evidence they do measure something, but identifying that something as "intelligence" draws a lot of scorn.

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 17:58 (two months ago) link

We will never credit hume in this house

IQ is a strawman itt

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:00 (two months ago) link

IQ is extremely relevant & the fact that ppl clearly take it more seriously than star charts even here says a lot about how ppl conceive of intelligence, (ir)rationality, etc

Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:04 (two months ago) link

IQ is a strawman itt

Agreed. Smart and stupid are the announced standards we're supposed to be applying, but no one knows what the criteria for these are. As we fumble around in the dark, it is easy to lay our hands on IQ as a proxy, but it's a useless proxy, so there we are.

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:05 (two months ago) link

xpost But they don't as has been illustrated, but don't let that stop you from dancing with the strawman.

You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:06 (two months ago) link

the fact that ppl clearly take it more seriously than star charts even here says a lot about how ppl conceive of intelligence

Sorry, Left, but you're trying to pin the tail on the donkey while blindfolded.

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:08 (two months ago) link

Waiting for Left to object to either the activity of pinning the tail on the donkey or the phrase 'blindfolded'.

Authoritarian Steaks (Tom D.), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:10 (two months ago) link

Don't know how so many people itt can argue against tarot cards while explicitly promoting phrenology, makes u thing

You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:12 (two months ago) link

IQ is extremely relevant & the fact that ppl clearly take it more seriously than star charts even here says a lot about how ppl conceive of intelligence, (ir)rationality, etc

― Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:04 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

a good demonstration of intelligence would be to not the 'itt' u tiresome ass also astrology is fuckin nonsense regardless of whether iq is a measure of anything its not involved at all

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:13 (two months ago) link

anyway its noted we cant talk about anyone being intelligent, is anyone keeping tabs at all these days

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:16 (two months ago) link

I notice you didn't call IQ fuckin nonsense which is exactly the fucking oh never mind

Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:16 (two months ago) link

if I really wanted to be PC I would object to the rampant use of ableist language like dumb, stupid etc. which I genuinely have problems with but even I know that's a lost cause rn

Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:18 (two months ago) link

Ive addressed IQ as a strawman ive addressed astrology as utterly irrelevant ive amended the rest of this post to be nice tbh

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:19 (two months ago) link

I notice you didn't call IQ fuckin nonsense

I notice you didn't call IQ "fuckin nonsense" either.

(licks pencil, scores one point for himself, according to Left's Rules of Debate)

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:21 (two months ago) link

Anyway i think people dont want to be bothered if they can help it and modern life is set up to supply a surfeit of bother and somewhere between something aligned with ledge's start of a discussion about values and keeping the head down and earning a crust without being told you are guilty of something or on the hook for the price of something else people are happy to feign whatever passes for average or below average intelligence unless they have been rewarded for it or anticipate likely reward for it

That latter point is where rearing, class, education all absolutely feed in- the kindling of interest and the interest shown in return imo

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:25 (two months ago) link

(Not on topic, but a gentle aside to Left: Try for once posting like a human addressing fellow humans instead of a lecturer addressing the benighted. You could even try venturing onto ground where you don't feel yourself to be 100% righteous from time to time. It would be refreshing to hear your voice in some other register.)

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:30 (two months ago) link

if I really wanted to be PC I would object to the rampant use of ableist language like dumb, stupid etc. which I genuinely have problems with but even I know that's a lost cause rn

You're a lost cause.

Authoritarian Steaks (Tom D.), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:33 (two months ago) link

Try for once posting like a human addressing fellow humans

Thank you, Aimless, you've echoed my thoughts precisely.

You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:35 (two months ago) link

I don't seem to be able to do that. everything is just read as trolling at this point

Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:36 (two months ago) link

Yeah you dont get to start from scratch as if you havent been sermoning from the mount the past several months but its doable

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:38 (two months ago) link

Hi left, lets start over

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:38 (two months ago) link

it's a paradox, the more sincere and honest and open and earnest I try to be the more I piss people off. clearly I am a lost cause as an ilxor

Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:41 (two months ago) link

that's how this website works believe me

treeship., Monday, 3 May 2021 18:42 (two months ago) link

but still, you keep coming back -- as do i, as does LJ -- and so that tells you something about yourself and what motivates you. something complicated, probably, requiring some tarot cards.

treeship., Monday, 3 May 2021 18:43 (two months ago) link

Sincere open honest and earnest isnt generous, humorous, engaged or interested which all tend to be decent starting points to discuss things with people ime

Now im not everybodys cup of tea neither granted

flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:45 (two months ago) link

if the ilxor covertly known as LJ and currently using the dn 'imago', could rehabilitate himself as an ilxor, no one's case is hopeless.

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:45 (two months ago) link

Lots of smart people are pretty dumb. Each finds a different way to be dumb. It's a vast tapestry.

Loads of people (myself included!) got called "gifted and talented" in childhood. But it almost never manifested in a way that made us happier, better-functioning, or less inclined to make terrible life decisions. I would gladly trade 90% of that attention for marginally better life skills.

I don't love the framing of "emotional intelligence" or "multiple intelligences" - much of which is clearly designed to flatter more than to describe. But it does seem like it's not a single sliding scale of smart > stupid. I'm good at some stuff. I suck at some stuff. Same is true of everybody.

Finally, to the ableism point: I have some Feelz(TM) here. My 10-year-old son is pretty seriously intellectually disabled. He's mostly nonverbal and is unlikely to ever talk, write, do math, or read at grade level. At some point he might be able to bag groceries. And I love him utterly because he is my son. He's affectionate, funny, and pleasant to be around. Smart/stupid just doesn't really apply, he's himself and when I'm with him, that's what matters.

Frumious Cumberbatch (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:46 (two months ago) link

My dad used to call me "severely gifted".

Halfway there but for you, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:47 (two months ago) link

Conflating intelligence with worth is why this is a radioactive topic. These things need to be disentangled, utterly so.

treeship., Monday, 3 May 2021 18:48 (two months ago) link

xp ye mad puffin

treeship., Monday, 3 May 2021 18:49 (two months ago) link

I think in pretty much every context where I employ 'stupid' as a pejorative I almost always actually mean 'lazy'. So something more akin to 'Clearly you have an intellectual capacity roughly commensurate with the task you're undertaking so the fact that it's become a deeply flawed (if not failed) undertaking seems to be more about your unwillingness to expend effort than your ability, idiot.'

You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:52 (two months ago) link

OL brings the truth bomb

sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:55 (two months ago) link

xpost (Like, generally as applied to work-related concerns, if that wasn't obvious.)

You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 May 2021 18:55 (two months ago) link

I don't seem to be able to do that. everything is just read as trolling at this point


Lol it’s not read as trolling it’s just read as “acting out” or whatever

brimstead, Monday, 3 May 2021 19:21 (two months ago) link

I’ve done it too

brimstead, Monday, 3 May 2021 19:21 (two months ago) link

you seems genuinely full of bad feelings for people and that’s OK but it’s not trolling

brimstead, Monday, 3 May 2021 19:22 (two months ago) link

I am interested in learning more about Left.

Left, your rigidity is anathema to me, it just is, but I trust that it’s sincere. What led you to this militant outlook?

treeship., Tuesday, 4 May 2021 00:55 (two months ago) link

I felt genuine kinship with you when you talked about being misinterpreted on ilx. I know i sound dickish now but i don’t mean to.

treeship., Tuesday, 4 May 2021 00:56 (two months ago) link

regarding earlier posts: I love the iconography of tarot, just as art. I love all of the tarot traditions - early Italian, Marseilles, Etteilla, Rider-Waite-Smith, Thoth, and the Celtic Wheel of the Year. The confluence of the Kabbalah, the Tree of Life, astrology, numerology, the Waite-Smith tradition, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and especially colour symbolism in the images of the Thoth tarot is very deep and is fascinating

Dan S, Tuesday, 4 May 2021 01:55 (two months ago) link

I don't read you as a troll, Left, there just tends to be a pattern in your posts of saying "this artist/person/opinion is shit" with an added implication of "and you're morally suspect for engaging with them/their work." And I don't assume that that's your intention, but it doesn't really contribute to a great vibe on a board that spends of lot of time talking about music and movies and art made by less than morally upright people, and where politics discussions are already well aware of how terrible everything is and mainly divided about the relative merits of purity and incrementalism. I think your posts about music that you enjoy are good!

JoeStork, Tuesday, 4 May 2021 02:17 (two months ago) link

My mum always says stupid is as stupid does

Pinefox reviews Reviews (wins), Tuesday, 4 May 2021 08:56 (two months ago) link

She’s a fucking dimwit though

Pinefox reviews Reviews (wins), Tuesday, 4 May 2021 08:56 (two months ago) link


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