It's funny to me when someone uses Ornette to put down Beefheart. Christgau and the TMR chapter in the book Kill Your Idols both did this. I love them both, so it's weird when someone is like, "when you grow up, you can forget that silly Beefheart nonsense and have some wholesome Ornette".
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:10 (three years ago) link
Yeah, it's dumb. I don't even equate the two, they each did their own thing.
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:12 (three years ago) link
Hey, when you Captain Beefheart fans are done with your ba-bas and blankies, y'all can join the grownups and check out the real shit from m'man Tom Waits.
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:13 (three years ago) link
Yes, I don't hear much of a resemblance. "Minstrelsy" is a nice touch though, I must say.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:16 (three years ago) link
But predictable as ever.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:17 (three years ago) link
they don't really sound alike to me until ornette goes electric & even then then not by much. they are different enough that liking one & not the other shouldn't be strange. i only mention ornette because it seems like every beefheart profile brings him up, much like & presumably for similar reasons that every zappa profile mentions varese
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:18 (three years ago) link
i have similar problems with tom waits, obviously. this isn't some new criticism i just made up myself
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:19 (three years ago) link
I don't like Tom Waits either. It seems Ornette and Beefheart were quite friendly, Ornette gave him a shehnai, which he proceeded to blow all over the Mirror Man sessions. But I think Ornette also gave Nico her harmonium?
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:23 (three years ago) link
Generous chap!
by all accounts he was extremely generous to other musicians
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:25 (three years ago) link
anyway so best track - at least one of the hair pies is instrumental i think? that one
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:28 (three years ago) link
Good quote from Beefheart, "I'm not trying to put my name beside Ornette Coleman, because you can't put your name beside Ornette Coleman."
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:28 (three years ago) link
An ungenerous listener might call the Captain's sax playing "minstrelsy" in relation to jazz, though.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:29 (three years ago) link
call me generous because that doesn't bother me so much. maybe it should
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:37 (three years ago) link
Think we might need to tighten up our definition of 'minstrelsy' just a smidge
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:38 (three years ago) link
yah no shit
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:43 (three years ago) link
it's not a coincidence that a huge number of white rock vocalists sang or sing the way they do and it's not something without historical precedent. listen to the aerosmith's "honkin' on bobo" and tell me it's a) racially unproblematic and b) totally different from what beefheart was doing (yes he did more interesting things with it, that's not the point)
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:49 (three years ago) link
this is pretty basic history-of-rock stuff, it doesn't mean you have to burn your records but denial shouldn't be an option either
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:50 (three years ago) link
sir there's nothing you can tell me about honkin on bobo that I don't already know
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link
the minstrel show has plenty of influence through a lot of (if not all) popular music, not only that made by white people, and not in any way confined to blues/rock singers
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 16:55 (three years ago) link
of course. but there are specific ways certain tropes surface in white rock (broadly speaking) that are sort of acknowledged and handwaved away at the same time
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 17:02 (three years ago) link
I'd wager that most people on this board are well aware that the entire concept of rock and roll was pretty much swiped wholesale from underacknowledged Black musicians. That fact alone doesn't exactly clear the way for referring to music you dislike as 'minstrelsy' because it reminds you of the work of Black artists.
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 17:13 (three years ago) link
yeah it's not that anyone doesn't acknowledge all that, left, i'm not discounting it at all - just, to quote, you rhetorical style is often "the closest weapon at hand"
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 17:21 (three years ago) link
I mean, there are certainly plenty of problematic aspects to white electric blues (the Blueshammer problem, you might call it) but I would source them to racist interpretations of 1930s delta blues, rather than to the minstrel show. This is a world where actual minstrel show songs or "c**n songs" (Hello! Ma Baby, Bill Bailey, Mighty Lak a Rose, Swanee) are still remembered in the lineage of the Great American Songbook.
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 17:26 (three years ago) link
listen to the aerosmith's "honkin' on bobo"
This thread has become one to watch, investing early could pay big dividends
― JoeStork, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 17:28 (three years ago) link
lol, got to that part of Left's post and was like 'that's a hard no'
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 17:57 (three years ago) link
Listening to Aerosmith's "Honkin' on Bobo" seems to have had a trauamtic effect, so I'll pass.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 18:05 (three years ago) link
When I listened to it I wound up honking all over my bobo, took me an hour to clean up
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 18:15 (three years ago) link
Once you honk you just can't stonk.(pls refer to educational video about "The Stonk" on youtube if you don't understand this)
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 18:20 (three years ago) link
Surprised to see 0 votes for "my human gets me blues."
― trip maker, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 18:43 (three years ago) link
― Profile I Want to Edit My Profile... Change Display Name: (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 bookmarkflaglink
This how the capitalist bosses talk about Beefheart?
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 20:24 (three years ago) link
what
― new display name (Left), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 20:38 (three years ago) link
The album title was suggested by Steven Tyler, who heard the phrase somewhere and the band found it funny.[4]
― soref, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 21:23 (three years ago) link
huh
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=HONKIN%27%20ON%20BOBO
― I like signing up to dead sites (sleeve), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 21:25 (three years ago) link
(xp) Trout Mask Replica?
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 21:31 (three years ago) link
https://worldscinema.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/The-Bobo-19672-e1544456799524.png
I don't care if you're black, white, blue
― soref, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 21:33 (three years ago) link
this album would be great if it was instrumental but the captain's beat/bluesman minstrelsy shtick is insufferable and sinks the whole project
You should check this out:https://cuneiformrecords.bandcamp.com/album/pork-chop-blue-around-the-rind
― o. nate, Friday, 9 April 2021 20:29 (three years ago) link