that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl'

Also, absolute bottom line, that kind of advice is meant for WHITE PEOPLE. We're the ones who need to inspect ourselves and consider why we might unthinkingly cast things as morally good or bad, to interrogate what we were taught was natural/immutable, etc. Marginalized and especially Black and indigenous people are not implicated in critiques of whiteness.

It's zero-sum game thinking, which is a blight upon contemporary discourse. Reassessing things that have been devalued/deprecated/demonized by the powers-that-be is a necessary step in the right direction, but these things a) are not automatically good by dint of having been deemed lesser by an oppressively hegemonic system; b) may in some cases be complements or, better yet, the conceptual equals of their purported antithesis. The inversion of values is not enough if it merely upholds binarism – you need to take it a step further (this is basically Deconstruction 101).

xps

In terms of exotification of non-white cultures or whatever, yes that happens and that's why white ppl need to look to POC leadership broadly to define what THEY value and what parts of other heritages they want to foreground and reframe in a way that's liberated from white supremacist capitalist patriarchy (god bless bell hooks). The ground is laid by Black and POC leadership and that's where white ppl (who want to do and be better) need to look to that leadership and make ourselves accountable to it, whatever that means for each of us.

Like, first impressions, if I went into a space/gathering of white people and they busted out that graphic with no explanation, I would def have questions. But otoh I've seen basically the same content drawn up by Black organizers as teaching material for white ppl to stop pushing a white-privileged worldview onto everyone else and every situation.

I think that's a possible initial reading but that the creator is telling us to look deeper--the emphasis on productivity over quality of life, the contempt for those who don't want to make or take more than is needed, a collective valuing of more-ness over sufficiency...those are things that white supremacist patriarchal capitalism encourages us to value, as opposed to cultures we supplanted that valued harmony, sufficiency, collective wellness, cooperation, etc.

Would you say that the standard of living in a culture that privileges harmony, sufficiency, collective wellness, and cooperation is high or low?

I have no idea but that's not for me to define, is my point.

i'm aware that i'm playing out of bounds a little bit here re: whiteness and i hope you'll forgive me--i'm not trying to hurt anyone, but these thoughts aren't fully formed or calibrated and there are some rough edges. and i know that i stump for whiteness to a degree in my day-to-day, definitely in ways i'm not even aware of. i'm not trying to make this a post-race thing, that would be really stupid. i just think that the racial dynamic of whiteness is intimately tied with the will to dominate other people based on some biological fundamentalism--like that's the point of it--and that biological fundamenatalism can be re-stated or re-aligned in different ways, it can be realigned to a category of "laziness" that applies across racial identity groups for instance--whatever the current formation of the will to dominate others requires, although of course certain ones like blackness in america have a long and extremely brutal history.

there are shades of "i have the right to survive and thrive" and "i deserve to live a highly exploitative lifestyle just because of who i am" in everything we do to get along in the world. the difference between those two things is becoming increasingly obfuscated. i mean "wanting/enjoying a high standard of living" or "being an entrepreneur" is 1) something that sounds like what everyone should have access to in order to be their best selves but is also 2) always going to be on the backs of others to some degree? it's not a hard and fast thing, always with inflections and contexts, but somewhere on the scale of jesus christ to elon musk i think we sort of have to own how much our position in the world comes at the expense of others imo.

but in any case it strikes me that white people disparaging white-people-culture is one of the whitest things imaginable--it's showy and hypocritical, it scores you little points in the cultural capital column, and it does absolutely nothing to alleviate any real disparity that whiteness creates, in fact i think it just reinforces the effects of whiteness. i do think a lot of people mean well when they do this and they are probably working against whiteness in other, more real ways, but it always makes me feel embarrassed for them. am i working against whiteness in real, meaningful ways? i like to think so but then i'm increasingly aware of my limitations and the extremely white culture i have to be a part of every day.

yeah I think I agree with your point about the "white people making fun of white people" thing, in fact it kind of jibes with what I'm saying - there's almost a humblebrag or an implicit self-congratulation to a lot of the "lol white people" jokes that could be read to imply a superior culture with a few funny shortcomings.

I do feel "my whiteness" when I respond to "Carry On My Wayward Son" ... though it was a recurring theme song in CW tv show "Supernatural" so maybe it has become "less white"? Also, how can this white ppl playlist exist with Creedence. Carry On is a "deep cut" compared to a half dozen CCR songs ... and why the perennial "Friends in Low Places" is also absent ... I think this list was probably compiled by a younger person (I don't recognize 1/3 of the songs because I'm old), and maybe that Garth Brooks song isn't as prevalent among the youngs?

booming post, map

*exist without Creedence

though it was a recurring theme song in CW tv show "Supernatural" so maybe it has become "less white"

I've seen Supernatural. I am having difficulty imagining anything less white than Supernatural. (And Kansas had John Brown on the cover of their debut album, so their politics are...murky.)

Sorry — anything more white than Supernatural.

one thing I've learned is that whenever white people try to clown something for being very white, that thing will end up having huge non-white fanbases

see: Phil Collins

Supernatural has an insane tumblr/twitter/meme following that crosses racial barriers iirc

Yeah, that's a good example. Also Celine Dion, the Smiths, Country music (huge in Nigeria! Or used to be, anyway)...any schmaltzy 70's act you could mention is bound to have a strong following in South East Asia.

xpost

(I had a longer post to in orbit and map that I deleted because it was pompous. I will revisit it if I can make it sound less like we are the council in charge of designing a post-racist society and more like people who've known each other for years having a conversation.)

xp the transition of Journey into a Filipino-led band (albeit one whose lead singer somehow hasn't joined them in the R&R HoF) is worth including in that list

one thing I've learned is that whenever white people try to clown something for being very white, that thing will end up having huge non-white fanbases

That's often true. That doesn't make the thing itself less white, though. Something can be a product of white culture (WHICH IS A THING) and still appeal to non-white people. Amazing but true!

Supernatural has an insane tumblr/twitter/meme following that crosses racial barriers iirc

― G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, April 6, 2021 8:49 AM (four minutes ago

otm! the two friends I would nerd out about that show with when I was super into it a few years ago were both queer & POC

xxp
*Steps out from beneath an umbrella and looks up to drone camera hovering over the English countryside, speaking in unison with Noel Fielding*
"Welcome... to the new season... of The Great Post-Racist Society Planning Thread"

(I had a longer post to in orbit and map that I deleted because it was pompous. I will revisit it if I can make it sound less like we are the council in charge of designing a post-racist society and more like people who've known each other for years having a conversation.)

― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:51 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol if this is shade at me i deserve it.

Something can be a product of white culture (WHICH IS A THING) and still appeal to non-white people. Amazing but true!

I will leave it to someone else to "interrogate" that one, but ... would you say a hypothetical "product of white culture" that appeals to many non-white people is "more white" than a "product of white culture" with a predominantly white audience? Like idk The McLaughlin Group

That doesn't make the thing itself less white, though. Something can be a product of white culture (WHICH IS A THING) and still appeal to non-white people. Amazing but true!

Sure. But as discussed in this thread, attempts to paint a certain cultural product as white from ppl who are themselves white are usually done to distance themselves from said culture and carry cachet as a hip not-that-kind-of-white-person.

It was meant to be shade at myself! There's plenty of room under here though if you'd like

hehe why thank you

Sorry — anything more white than Supernatural.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Tuesday, April 6, 2021 8:41 AM (seventeen minutes ago)

I mean ... you are trolling or somehow forgetting a very large quantity of things here ... esp. considering you used to post on Bagatellen

Like idk The McLaughlin Group

Don't know enough about the McLaughlin Group to know if it's whiter than cricket.

Bagatellen

Non-idiomatic improv passes through whiteness and achieves translucence.

xp - The original incarnation aired on PBS member TV stations and the PBS digital subchannel World as well as on some local commercial TV stations, including WCBS-TV in New York City. During its run, underwriters included Pfizer, the New York Stock Exchange, and GE (the longest-serving).

The first mention of the McLaughlin group made me lol irl. That show is where titanium white is manufactured

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McLaughlin_(host)

attempts to paint a certain cultural product as white from ppl who are themselves white are usually done to distance themselves from said culture and carry cachet as a hip not-that-kind-of-white-person

Absolutely. There's been some discussion along these lines in the ILM thread about the Floating Points/Pharoah Sanders album (though it's disguised as classism — calling it "dinner party music" and whatnot), and what strikes me is how thoroughly that erases Pharoah Sanders' agency, when the album was his idea.

Cricket is a phenomenal example of Daniel Rf's truthbomb

Actually I have seen the McLaughlin thing, it was on some obscure channel over here in the 2000s, an American guy I used to know whose flat I hang out in would watch it, along with other 'American things' like Jackass.

isn't cricket also popular in former British colonies?

It's only like a second religion in India.

xp - I had actually forgotten that notorious white supremacist Pat Buchanan was a regular on McLaughlin Group

I can't think about the McLaughlin Group without think of Dana Carvey's impersonation

not to be too trenchant but in response to the thread concept, the reason many white ppl do that thing where they disparage white ppl is because they know in their hearts that they are culpable for white supremacy and lack the courage to change the system by so instead they mock it in an impotent attempt at self-disenfranchisement and surface relief from the static guilt of being the oppressor class
your daily reminder that white supremacy - or indeed any form of meritless caste system - benefits no one in the long run.

you might even say it's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZrrWj_y3Mc

lol I appreciate you, DJP, and also map! Despite the fact that we've all been Very Online for 20 years and usually communicate pretty well, I feel like this is a weird way to have this particular conversation.

For the record I don't have a problem making fun of "whiteness" although it's a subtle art, maybe, and I think a couple of different things are being flattened itt. If white people don't talk to each other about white supremacy, and normalize it like we've normalized talking about...idk colonialism (maybe? I Am Not A Historian), then...what? It can't be left unspoken like we all understand it and it's beneath our dignity to address it.

The spotify playlist bit makes me think that “white people talking about whiteness” when it comes to music is usually a white person deciding that a song that was/is ubiquitous during their life that they now find corny or cliche is “white culture” regardless of who actually liked or listened to it!

haven't read this and probably won't tbh but I think it'll probably play many of the hits from above

https://www.gawker.com/culture/white-people-love-calling-other-white-people-white-people?utm_campaign=gawker&utm_content=1643983531&utm_medium=owned&utm_source=twitter

A few years ago I wrote a surly little rant in the Spectator magazine

Can't believe you wouldn't want to read an article that starts this way.

i love links that end utm_source=twitter

Here are 5 out 7 members of the cantonal government of St-Gallen, Switzerland, plus its chancellor. pic.twitter.com/qlPNNTE0KA

— alexandre afonso (@alexandreafonso) February 12, 2022

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzQVOtJWEAghMVi.jpgp

https://i.imgur.com/WMpeV2q.jpg