should i give the grateful dead a chance?

that's me at time as a confirmed fan

My road to moderate Dead fandom went from seeing them with Dylan and Petty in the late '80s and thinking they were boring and kind of embarrassing (Dylan and Petty were fine), to enjoying "Touch of Grey," to picking up the Long Strange Trip 2-CD compilation sometime in the '90s, to having a crush on a hippie chick who gave me some live tapes to listen to, to hearing a live track from a Jerry Garcia Band album in a record store and really clicking with Garcia's guitar playing ("oh yeah, this guy was great"), to a full immersion in the Napster/Slsk era. I've listened to their full studios discography over the years and a whole bunch of Dick's Picks and other live shows available on streaming, and I've reached the point now where they are among my go-to's to toss on whenever I can't think of what else to play. My early objections to their ragged vocals and rhythms have turned into fondness, and I recognize that at their best as a live band they were truly great. Just took a while for me to hear it.

did the dead ever do “la woman”?

― brimstead, Monday, March 29, 2021 11:44 AM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't think so, but after thinking about it for a bit I could imagine Jim Morrison bellowing out a version of West L.A. Fadeaway (except for maybe the verse about the mob/"copacetic").

my cousin (who i went to my only dead show with) and I used to sing the opening line of 'bombs away' just to enrage each other. I haven't heard the whole record though.

Probably just as well, though there are some l a session guys on there I think

Too bad The Doors didn't cover Dead (can well imagine Morrison listening, though, around the time of Morrison Hotel for inst) Los Lobos did do "West L.A, Fadeaway," and it fit right in.
from my Nashville Scene ballot comments re 2010 albums:

On Los Lobos' Tin Can Trust, it seems like the narrator is on the
verge, he's some old tired guy, but made up his mind to do something,
take revenge and/or a commission, various indicators of volatility
keep rolling by or up the block, and little jolts--I know, enough with
the foreplay already, but the tension keeps getting renewed,
reinforced, and the Dead cover, "West L.A. Fadeaway," fits perfectly,
with no crunchy granola attached
(it's all sidewalks and traffic, the whole album, and then
there's the sardonic "happy ending" history short). A cliche to say
it's a soundtrack for movies you can make up, but it really seems to
work that way, rumbling implications--if it were so definite a
storyline, would get too familiar too fast, perhaps. It is badass
urban country, obsessive as a shot glass lens.

the 8/24/72 dark star is a total masterpiece. i love it. that's it for now.

Veneta was like 3 days later which is a major peak on a number of songs .

2/26/77 PITB>The Wheel>PITB was playing on the Sirius Dead station on my morning commute. Good one!

That was one of the first shows I burned off archive.org when I started really getting into live GD.

Me too. That setlist is like their greatest hits for me.

the 8/24/72 dark star is a total masterpiece. i love it. that's it for now.

Still not quite sure I understand why they released the following night (a just fine, but not exceptional show for ‘72) instead of this one as a Dave’s Picks.

Who knows what they’re thinking. Seems to me they could have done a box set of the entire Berkeley run as a nice complement to the celebrated Oregon show. The Berkeley run is excellent from start to finish and I assume that just about any ‘72 release sells well.

I don't know if this is the best thread for it, but if any of you had, as I did, grown to love the hilariously irreverent and loving blog, Thoughts on the Dead, Brother of the Dead posted an update yesterday that Rick, the guy behind the blog, lost his battle with cancer at the terribly young age of 46.

I'll be firing up some Dead tonight (and schmedibles) in his honor tonight.

yeah that is a shame — very funny guy. 46, way too young.

I seem to always come back to roughly 70-72. I don't think the band ever sounded better - Kreutzmann's crisp drumming, Jerry's guitar still a bit raw sounding etc, everything usually pretty tight but just loose enough, etc. Plenty of good moments after that, but I'm more of a Harpur College guy than a Cornell guy.

No.

I thought they went through like 3 different feels between 70 and 71. though possibly more to do with Mickey Hart finding out about his dad having embezzled so much from the band and leaving in early 71. So they retreated from the full out space exploration of 70 and became the greatest bar band ever to quote somebody who I can't remember and then worked their way back out to longer exploration. Would love to have 70 incrementally morph into 72 while exploring the same sound. BUt I think they heavily retreated from long jamming in 71. Seemed to be back to it by the time they went to Europe and definitely were doing half hour Dark Stars by the time of Veneta.

Been listening to this show throughout the day tho, really enjoying it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSiAwqVJRE

xp you've got it right re: their evolution from 70-72. I think a really interesting transitional period is fall 71, when Pigpen took a temporary break from the band and Keith joined on keys. They still have a foot firmly in "saloon Dead" territory, but they also start to really stretch out again (e.g. the legendary 10/31/71 "Dark Star"). At the same time they were breaking in a lot of the new Europe 72 songs. If I had to pick one show from that tour I'd go for 11/7/71, Harding Theatre, San Francisco, which is on the Archive in a good-quality soundboard taped from a radio broadcast. Keith is playing a properly out-of-tune honky-tonk piano, and there's an incredible Dark Star -> The Other One -> Me and My Uncle -> The Other One suite in the second set. "Me and My Uncle" is rarely worth comment, but this particular version blew my mind the first time I heard it materialize out of the Other One space jam. It absolutely RIPS

Wild to read through the "journey" of my old posts on this thread gradually coming around over many years.

I think if I could explain something to young me about the Dead is that you can't expect them to scratch the same itch that other seemingly related types of music might scratch. They have psych trappings but they won't scratch the heavy psych itch (other than maybe Anthem and some early stuff, and even then, it's not gonna be riffage like Zep or Sabbath). It's too sloppy and not "advanced" enough to satisfy a prog rock or fusion itch. It's not funky enough for funk, it's not pickin enough for country, it's noodlier than pretty much anything on earth.

The Dead are just, like, The Dead, man. You take them as they are and they return the favor.

Got a CDR of Terrapin Station & Shakedown Street that has been getting quite a bit of road use. Those are pretty good albums, couple tunes kinda wack. It would have been hilarious if Arista had gotten one of those tunes on the charts and the Dead play a TV show like Solid Gold. Still too weird man...

Soul Train line to Shakedown

Ha! The Dead on Soul Train might have happened on Earth III.

lol, of COURSE this is already a whole genre of video
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=soul+train+grateful+dead

almost as entertaining as the People Dancing to Steely Dan account

The world is delightfully weird sometimes.

The Dead are just, like, The Dead, man. You take them as they are and they return the favor.

This is spot on and after all these years of trying last year it clicked for me. Stop searching for something that it is not but just enjoy the bomb songs and guitar trips through bright and shiny meadows.

Found my copy of Dick's Picks vol 16 last night and have the wrong disc as #3. It's Modey lemon not them, I don't remember the last time I took the cd out or actually having a copy of Modey Lemon. Which is a pain since not sure if I have this 3rd disc now. Oh bummer.

So haven't had cd out in way too long and not sure where I was when I did. Hoping that I have a reverse of this and it wasn't at somebody else's place. 69 Dead is pretty cool. Glad that wasn't disc 2 where they actually go from Dark Star into Other One and back which if forgotten they ever did.

I think if I could explain something to young me about the Dead is that you can't expect them to scratch the same itch that other seemingly related types of music might scratch. They have psych trappings but they won't scratch the heavy psych itch (other than maybe Anthem and some early stuff, and even then, it's not gonna be riffage like Zep or Sabbath). It's too sloppy and not "advanced" enough to satisfy a prog rock or fusion itch. It's not funky enough for funk, it's not pickin enough for country, it's noodlier than pretty much anything on earth.

The Dead are just, like, The Dead, man. You take them as they are and they return the favor.

Excellent post.

yes but it does make the band sound really terrible by any of the usual standards for judging music lol

actually the other day i was getting more out of live/dead than ever before, until that fucking lovelight song. there's always some bullshit like that to fuck up any enjoyment i get from this band. do those who become fans just put up with this stuff until they like it or until it gets better or do you just have to be very selective with your listening?

I bet you’re a big fan of “good morning little schoolgirl”

Oh I definitely still feel like that -- it's usually what my friend calls the "Bobby cowboy shit" that breaks up the flow for me. I imagine that for the true heads it was all just one big party and you didn't really care, like it was fun to hear your friend Bobby do his little cover of George Jones even if it wasn't up to snuff, cause the acid was kicking in or that whippet you just did was great. Which admittedly does make them sound like a shitty band. But I just see it as part of the total package, in the same way that Jerry's flubs come with his high points. Because there aren't a lot of guitar players in the world that could just play almost non-stop, eavily exploratory, largely improvisational lead for three hours and not have flubs, unless you're talking about like a John McLaughlin-level player.

As I said above, there are also the myopic deadheads who seem to have never heard other music and really believe that Bobby is a top level country singer/musician. I saw someone on youtube refer to Bill Kreutzmann as "the greatest jazz rock drummer of all time" which is hilarious. Bobby is a really good and really interesting rhythm guitar player though, and Kreutzmann's drumming is rock solid and works well for what they do.

Part of the magic of the Dead is how they can be transcendental one moment and objectively awful the next. I personally have a bit of a soft spot for Pigpen, but know he is an obstacle for many; they also might be my favorite band, but I'd be happy never hearing another one of their Dancing in the Streets or Not Fade Away covers ever again. I think that coming to accept and even loving that friction is key.

xp

yes but it does make the band sound really terrible by any of the usual standards for judging music lol

No, I don't think the post does that at all. It nicely sums up a lot of the preconceptions that people come to the Dead with and how most of them are usually wrong.

Always got the sense that Bobby was kind of just there to give jerry a break from vocal duties. Could he be the weakest link in the band?

I think the gulf between their iconography and their actual sound is a big part of this, too. After years of seeing all the skulls and trippy imagery on their merch, I was expecting a total psychedelic blowout and was initially put off by the wimpy, spidery music they actually produce. And yeah, Bobby is definitely the weak link, even though Ace is good as hell.

Has anybody ever compiled a list of the "definitive" versions of each Dead song, whether studio or live, or is that anathema to their spirit?

HeadyVersion is all user rankings of live versions

There's a site called "Heady Version" which is equal parts a good reference and maddening (in how they circle around certain shows and overweigh official releases), but it is a good way to explore what are considered the "best" versions and you can search by song:

http://headyversion.com/song/66/grateful-dead/dark-star/

As an example, I linked to the one for "Dark Star".

ha xpost

OK, would you consider someone who only listened to the "best" version of each song on that list alien to what makes the band special?

Pigpen can definitely be slog for me, but I never minded the Bobby cowboy stuff...I actually kind of dig those moments for the contrast they provide.

What I actively hate are the Chuck Berry covers. They're always a perfunctory slog, and an insult to the composer...with the single, and startling, exception of "Around and Around," Jersey City, 9/27/72 (Dick's Picks 11), which is far and away the best performance of a Chuck cover they've ever done.

Bobby's vocals may be the weakest link, but his guitar playing is excellent and a hugely important ingredient in their sound.

OK, would you consider someone who only listened to the "best" version of each song on that list alien to what makes the band special?

Maybe? But they have such a wide variety of types of songs and part of the appeal for many is how they structure their sets, so listening to songs in isolation might not give you a good feel for a typical show.

I think if I could explain something to young me about the Dead is that you can't expect them to scratch the same itch that other seemingly related types of music might scratch. They have psych trappings but they won't scratch the heavy psych itch (other than maybe Anthem and some early stuff, and even then, it's not gonna be riffage like Zep or Sabbath). It's too sloppy and not "advanced" enough to satisfy a prog rock or fusion itch. It's not funky enough for funk, it's not pickin enough for country, it's noodlier than pretty much anything on earth.
The Dead are just, like, The Dead, man. You take them as they are and they return the favor.

This is all true, but the inverse is also true: nothing else quite scratches all the itches that the Dead scratch in quite the same way.

Which is also the problem with the many neo-jam bands that try to be the Dead instead of trying to be all the things the Dead tried to be.

Has anybody ever compiled a list of the "definitive" versions of each Dead song, whether studio or live, or is that anathema to their spirit?

― Halfway there but for you, Friday, May 7, 2021 9:37 AM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A year or two ago I found a good spotify playlist that attempts to do this with a lot of their songs, and it was helpful for me in managing the overwhelming volume of material out there.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/07NwtfKF2nCJMA2c6PYuaf?si=57f35515518a439b

I don't think it's totally anathema, there are definitely cases where a certain live version is "definitive," esp since they often didn't even have a studio version. Some of the stuff on Europe 72 is like this.

In fact, when I briefly played with a dead cover band as a journeyman dead fan, the guys in the band would often tell me "x is the canonical version if you want to check it out." Like I think most people would agree on the Scarlet/Fire at Cornell '77 being the canonical one, even though there will be contrarians saying some other version is "better." Of course there are also disagreements about which is best. If anything, I would say that *contentious* disputes about which is best are anathema to their spirit, but friendly discussions of that sort are part of the package.

Which is also the problem with the many neo-jam bands that try to be the Dead instead of trying to be all the things the Dead tried to be.

― keto keto bonito v industry plant-based diet (PBKR), Friday, May 7, 2021 9:56 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I feel like for a band to capture the spirit of the dead, they'd have to sound nothing whatsoever like the dead.

yeah I think that's a state of being for a band that it will try to ape what visible aspects made their iconic archetype band what they were. But aping something that was arrived at while trying to answer questions for oneself and therefore travelling between several points and knowing what one was searching for to get there are 2 very different things. One may or may not actually find what it was looking for but creates along teh way and one makes an empty facsimile. Might be good at the moment though.

I always thought the next band that was trying to do what the MC5 were trying to do couldn't sound like the MC5 or it would defeat the purpose. like. Not sure how many other bands taht would be true of. Can would be one I think, John Coltrane and a few other questing jazzers.

Bobby's vocals may be the weakest link, but his guitar playing is excellent and a hugely important ingredient in their sound.

Yeah Bobby is an utterly unique rhythm guitarist. His playing feels precisely calibrated to fill in the spaces in between what Jerry and Phil are doing without muddying up the mix. He also generally had a much lower flub-rate than Jerry, even in the earlier years