Justice League (DC 2017 film)

the marvel movies make me feel nothing but contempt for tony starks and this contempt builds upon itself with each successive marvel movie i watch

v effective storytelling and characterization

No interest in his move from orphan / self-absorbed playboy / warmonger to team player / surrogate dad / family man? He's a well-adjusted Bruce Wayne.

I kind of like the parity of MCU villains and heroes. The movies repeatedly underscore the good and bad of, say, Stark tech, and that for every good thing that comes out of it plenty of bad stuff does, too. That is, the same technology that can make someone a hero can make someone else a villain. Same with the powers of the infinity stones, or magic, or military experiments or the way Spider-man Homecoming addressed the fallout of the alien invasion of New York and all the weapons and tech it left littered behind. It's basically an ongoing arms race fueled by different moralities and philosophies. The criticism often made of the Snyder films is that they are basically about feuding Gods and that he doesn't give a shit about people. The MCU films seem to be about people trying to elevate themselves to the levels of gods, much to the curiosity of (more or less) real gods, or godlike beings, who fwiw often struggle or are tasked with trying to become more "human." I think it's what makes the characters and characterization more compelling than their DC movie counterparts.

Anyway, Snyder should have gone all-in and made this square, black and white and *silent*. *Earn* those comparisons to Lang and Murnau, goddamit.

The criticism often made of the Snyder films is that they are basically about feuding Gods and that he doesn't give a shit about people

and this to me is very basically incorrect

there is a sort of deity-esque awe at superheroes going on in his films but his whole conception of clark kent in man of steel is tremendously human to me, this push-and-pull between what he feels like he owes people and his own desire keep everything inside and live a normal and private life

batman also isn't a god in any sense and is never filmed like one. he's introduced as someone who's fought crime in gotham for 20 years and has grown so cynical re: the capacity for human goodness that he brands criminals so they can get murdered in prison. and it's only when he glimpses clark's humanity (his love for his mother) that he realizes how far he's strayed

I'll take your word for it, I've just heard that criticism multiple places.

Speaking of Batman and Gods and not Gods, the RLM guys were actually poking fun at the fact that apparently in this one, while those with Godlike powers are rumbling at the end, Batman is basically driving around doing dumb basic stuff. They were like, let the super-powered Gods fights, aren't there some muggers to stop or something? Of course, the flip of this is all the humans in the MCU *do* stand shoulder to shoulder with or against their own God-like heroes and villains, which I don't think you're supposed to think about at all.

also it's not like batman transcends his ideology or anything, the "martha" thing is so sudden because it's not so much about understanding via empathy as it is just him being super triggered and redirecting his trauma. like the directly following image of his cooperative attack is reminiscent of the earlier drone strike, which is maybe schematic sure but feels more human than a lot of lesson-learned bouncebacks

As someone who has only seen maybe 5 or 6 of them, they seemed VERY formulaic in that every single one was MISUNDERSTOOD HERO FIGHTS EVIL DUDE WHO HAS BASICALLY THE SAME POWERS ONLY MORE SO; having been bored by this I haven't seen any since, so they way well have broadened their approach in the 300 movies since.

This makes me feel like the characters didn't do their job re: pulling you into the story as this yin/yang approach is a fundamental storytelling tactic and you didn't feel enough affinity for who the characters were to get past what they were doing.

also it's not like batman transcends his ideology or anything, the "martha" thing is so sudden because it's not so much about understanding via empathy as it is just him being super triggered and redirecting his trauma. like the directly following image of his cooperative attack is reminiscent of the earlier drone strike, which is maybe schematic sure but feels more human than a lot of lesson-learned bouncebacks

― lowercase (eric), Friday, March 26, 2021 8:11 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

huh yeah this is kinda otm!! batman vs superman, a movie full of queasy parallels

tbc there's definitely empathy but the pacing suggests that an understanding that's predicated solely upon it is probably pretty shallow, and (as he brands lex) that its inherent exclusions allow him to keep his conception of the categorical "criminal" unscathed. the film doesn't have the space to touch on a broader critique of "but if he fully got to empathize" (others have done that anyway) but still i always appreciate art that implictly pushes back against the notion of art being&doing good if it acts as an "empathy machine"

he doesn't brand lex!!!

oh yeah that's right, sorry, it's been a while -- i think it being on specifically a prison wall still signifies an "individual but not overall" change

which is maybe reading too much "better prisons are still prisons" into it but imo it still holds up (and the prisons are the same prisons)

also lmao now that i think about it given the scale and notoreity of what lex did it probably doesn't make a functional difference? besides the pain obviously

_BVS_ (extended cut) is the only Snyder movie I've seen that I actually think works back to front as a movie, and has enough weird shit in it to be genuinely compelling to watch, despite the length.

also hate to poke the bear but HK action is mostly corny af and I say that with deep affection.

gold standard is The Raid/Raid 2

the marvel movies make me feel nothing but contempt for tony starks and this contempt builds upon itself with each successive marvel movie i watch

but ghostface is only in the first one

the How Did This Get Made? and Blank Check podcasts dropped a crossover ep last night, in which I learnt that Snyder went into production with a full sequel script w/ Terrio ready to go, and the epilogue stuff in this movie is basically stuff that he is making up for not being able to get into another four-hour movie.

Most of the four speakers rewatched the other Snyder DCs and the Whedon cut in prep, and universally agreed that they really admire and appreciate the Snyder cut, and also reckon both they and culture at large would have hated it if it had come out in 2017

lol sic

[Accidental paste deleted - mod]

Mostly because I feel guilty that sic took the time to type out a long response, I figured I would acknowledge that and not just ignore it, but spoiler tags so as to not clog up the thread:

Yes, I will absolutely cop to likely reading many of your posts in this particular thread expecting bad faith arguments. Though I think "bad faith" is not a correct term for it, because I genuinely don't think you operate in bad faith. However, I do think you press particular points in such a tangential way, with counterpoints and specific examples that get so far removed from the starting point that it sometimes becomes tough to follow which thread you were pulling from when you started. Anyway, I don't have the bandwidth or time today to refute your points one-by-one, nor do I really think that would be helpful at this point but I will say I did press the issue in an unhelpful way, even if I do still disagree with some of your points.

Oops, dammit. I didn't mean to leave all that pasted in.

too late, you now must watch nothing but the Snyder Cut for the rest of the weekend

let's just accept that I The Secret-ed jon's vaccination into manifesting and have a mod delete everyone's all our posts

lol at the people of earth burying their mother box in a four-foot hole in the woods

Put a bit of effort in lads

I just found out that the guy who plays the scientist who kills himself is the same guy who played the scientist who kills himself in Terminator 2.

yes they hired miles dyson to play miles dyson, one of my favorite things about the movie lol

Woo boy.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/ray-fisher-opens-up-about-justice-league-joss-whedon-and-warners-i-dont-believe-some-of-these-people-are-fit-for-leadership

Among other things:

The tension only escalated when the issue of having Cyborg say "booyah" arose. That phrase had become a signature of the character thanks to the animated Teen Titans shows, but the character had never said it in the comics or in the original script. Fisher says that Johns had approached Snyder about including the line, but the director didn't want any catchphrases. He managed the situation by putting the word on some signs in his version of the film, as an Easter egg. But Johns' rep says the entire studio believed the booyah line was "a fun moment of synergy."

Fisher says he doesn't see the word in itself as an issue, but he thought it played differently in a live-action film than the animated series. And he thought of Black characters in pop culture with defining phrases: Gary Coleman's "Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"; Jimmie Walker's "Dy-no-mite!" As no one else in the film had a catchphrase, he says, "It seemed weird to have the only Black character say that."

With reshoots underway, Fisher says Whedon raised the issue again: "Geoff tells me Cyborg has a catchphrase," he told him. Fisher says he expressed his objections and it seemed the matter was dropped — until Berg, the co-chairman of DC Films and a producer on the project, took him to dinner.

"This is one of the most expensive movies Warners has ever made," Berg said, according to Fisher. "What if the CEO of AT&T has a son or daughter, and that son or daughter wants Cyborg to say 'booyah' in the movie and we don't have a take of that? I could lose my job." Fisher responded that he knew if he filmed the line, it would end up in the movie. And he expressed skepticism that the film's fate rested on Cyborg saying "booyah."

But he shot the take. As he arrived on set, he says, Whedon stretched out his arms and said a line from Hamlet in a mocking tone: "Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to you." Fisher replied, "Joss — don't. I'm not in the mood." As he left the set after saying just that one phrase for the cameras, he says, Whedon called out, "Nice work, Ray."

Hooooly shit. In a single wild statement, Geoff Johns used his Black First Wife, Asian Second Wife, and Mixed Race Son as political body shields https://t.co/ng9ooQcprS

— Allison Kilkenny (@allisonkilkenny) April 6, 2021

Also, he's pals with Akira Yoshida.

But Johns' rep says the entire studio believed the booyah line was "a fun moment of synergy."

"this is a dog who gets biz-zay, consistently and thoroughly"

Remember how the Bale Batmans had all of the 'POW! ZAP!' onscreen graphics whenever he fought dudes, same thing basically

Patterson Batman better have Bat Shark Repellant, is all I'm saying.

Is there a Flash thread for the 2023 film? Anyway, just watched this expecting to turn it off -30 minutes in. The opposite! I thought it had a good heart and actually honored its comic book origins. Ezra Miller's schtick is what it is, the cameos/callbacks are fun and, wonky as it is much of the time, i found this way more entertaining than the Spiderman film that mined a similar Multiverse Blah Blah vein a few years ago.

You had me until the end there - the three-Spider-man / Molina / Dafoe / Foxx film was great fun, I thought.

I enjoyed the Spidey film but thought this one was less "movie fan service-y", more "let's do something you'll find in a fun, goofy DC comics mini-series".