Floating Points and Pharoah Sanders and London Symphony Orchestra - Promises (2021)

I don't know if it's fair coming at it from the point of view that Sanders has no agency in this collab - that he's being used and appropriated rather than being the main focus of the record? Without him it's not a record, which is why he's so out in front throughout the piece.

tbf this thing took five years which leads me to believe that sanders was either deeply involved or stopped off and knocked this out in a weekend

but obvs there's a big difference between "Sanders has no agency in this collab" and "I find FP's fetishisation and gentrification of vintage spiritual jazz a bit iffy"

I do think Sanders has been part of some projects where he's just been a punched-in element; a couple of his albums with Bill Laswell have that feel. But here he's absolutely the centerpiece. I really like his vocal bits as much as his horn playing.

I think it's getting critical raves because a lot of critics these days fall over for music that won't wake the baby. But this thing really is quite beautiful at times, and the production and mixing are phenomenal. As a headphone album, it's fantastic.

Maybe I see it differently from a UK context, where FP and Hebden occupy something of a tastemaker/gatekeeper role, taking radical black forms and making them acceptable for Guardian readers.

.... huh

well i look forward to hearing this

Yeah, I wouldn't want to suggest Sanders has no agency. The record is clearly built around him. A big issue is that he can't play for too long, so the question is how do you work around that. Less of an issue in a studio setting, but I imagine they wanted to retain a live/real time feel. When I saw him at Le Guess Who a couple of years ago, I found it pretty disappointing, because the band just held down the harmonies and grooves for long stretches between his solos without really taking it anywhere themselves. I guess folks like that chilled out spiritual jazz drift, but I miss the spontaneity.

jazz in general is certainly a blindspot for me but this was very immediately compelling to me, much more so than the jazz records that crossover to getting widespread critical acclaim usually are

it's a really nice listen but i'm willing to believe it could be nothing really special as far as spiritual jazz etc. is concerned though

Only FP thing I liked was the Mojave desert album. Everything else is just a bit bland but he gets a lot of 'but it'll bring in xxx audience to xxx' votes, and that's prob true so hey.

I'm only on the fourth movement right now, but I don't think I'd really refer to this as "spiritual jazz." At least off the top of my head I can't think of anything this specifically reminds me of...? My first impression when Sanders started playing was it sounded like the soundtrack to the love scene in a 1970s scifi movie (a compliment, if that isn't clear), and this has yet to move firmly into jazz territory, though FP just started playing some Rhodes so maybe soon

some thoughts from Gio in the Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/arts/music/floating-points-pharoah-sanders-promises-review.html

"I do find Floating Points and Kieron Hebden's fetishisation and gentrification of vintage spiritual jazz a bit iffy, particularly when they largely ignore subsequent developments (or at least only allow certain things that fit the narrative), and strip out the politics."

FP isnt black, nor African American, so I'm not sure how great an idea it would be for him to do this. He prob relates to it in sonic, emotional ways. And that is prob more honest.

i'm not sure i associate spiritual jazz with four tet but ymmv i guess

that piece clarifies that pharoah sanders sought out floating points to collaborate with after being really impressed by elaenia so

R/A: https://ra.co/reviews/33747

Floating Points: Pharoah...

Pharoah Sanders: Huh?

Floating Points: Were you asleep? I'm sorry...

Pharoah Sanders: No no... I was listening... and dreaming... and listening to music in my head...

Floating Points: Oh wow. Sorry.

Pharoah Sanders: Many times, people think I might be asleep... but in fact, I am just listening to music in my head. I'm always listening... to the sounds around me... and playing, in my mind... and sometimes I dream.

Floating Points: What were you dreaming about?

Pharoah Sanders: I'm on a ship. In the ocean. Bears coming around smoking cigars. The bears are singing, 'We have the music. We have what you're looking for.'

Pharaoh Sanders is mark s confirmed

gonna send this album to my mom

speaking to Stew's point earlier in thread, i will say that lines like "It would be easy to just have Sanders blow constantly" from the RA piece do suggest that folks overestimate Sanders' spryness... it would NOT be easy to have Sanders blow constantly! if you wanted to produce the same sort of experiential album it would be impossible.

My kneejerk conclusion is it's better to think of this as New Age rather than jazz, even of the spiritual hat variety (though to update my earlier post: when the LSO kicks in the Alice C mimicry is undeniable). And under that rubric I'm not sure I can get all that worked up about the cultural politics

it certainly doesn't feel like there's anything really to get worked up about when sanders is the one who instigated the collaboration imo

Just got through this for the first time, and I think it's unspeakably gorgeous. One thing it is is an extended celebration of the mysterious beauty of the Dorian mode, which is strong enough to sustain interest for 46 minutes via that enchanting 7-note motif that repeats over and over. Obviously the strings are Alice Coltrane pastiche, particularly in Movement 6, but I think it's done well and reverently.

Oh man, I missed the window to pre-order this on Amazon (I know, I know, but I'm still not comfortable hitting up most record shops just yet) and it looks like the CD version is already out of stock until next month. Which is a good since for Sanders, he deserves more love!

i've heard this now and it's not quite my thing (a single repeated motif that anchors the entire piece? makes me feel like i gotta be really in the mood to hear those notes lol) but it is pretty cool. i'm with rob, can't think of a spiritual hat jazz record it resembles, so i can't quite wrap my head around accusing it of pastiche. i mean, certainly the orchestral parts will get the alice coltrane heads nodding but otherwise? if it were slightly more or less dissonant it would be kinda at home on ecm

I really like his vocal bits as much as his horn playing.

these parts really stunned me

huge xpost with rob lol

"good sign" - jfc, I don't know where that typo came from

that motif is so good though

it is really good. love the way movement 7 takes off

both of those guys are essentially unknown in america except by a specific sort of obsessive music nerd who either already knows Sanders or work at a tech firm.

lol, I'm burnt

jon, if you don't want to use Amazon (a decision I support), you can get this on bandcamp

Duh, didn't even think to check over there. Done, thanks!

Pharoah Sanders is 80, so I'm happy to see him getting late-career flowers, even if people think it's overly tasteful or critic-bait or whatever

i'm not sure i associate spiritual jazz with four tet but ymmv i guess

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Friday, March 26, 2021 8:32 AM (thirty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

There are the Steve Reid records, and he tends to include some in his DJ sets, also just sort of a sonic touchstone for him (and Floating Points).

ahhh well i’m guessing that i’m revealing that i only really engage with four tet’s bangers/remixes that are bangers

if you want a clearer sense of what sanders is bringing to this, stick around for the very yawnsomely bombastic coda, which i just clipped from my own playlist after the second spin.

Also I'm just thrilled to hear more spiritual jazz featuring the harpsichord. There's not much of it out there--McCoy Tyner Trident comes to mind, and what else? I'm blanking out at the moment...

Assuming Love Cry by Albert Ayler isn't "spiritual jazz".

he's not wearing a hat on the cover so...

After one listen this is a gorgeous piece, like stretching out the rubato intro from Alabama or Crescent over a whole album. I like how it's all basically one piece, the light touch + no drums, and that it all feels like a platform for Sanders. Can see how someone would find it overly restrained/tasteful though, it's a very delicate mood to sustain, and there are moments (mostly when PS is not playing) when it feels like nothing is happening.

well I guess I gotta get this, and yeah like Brad my mom will love it

i suppose it's damning to say this would be a great video game soundtrack but it's not meant to be!

what

actually i was on the verge of loling that a bunch of writers were celebrating this excellent writing music so i guess i get where you're coming from forks

actually i was on the verge of loling that a bunch of writers were celebrating this excellent writing music so i guess i get where you're coming from forks

I'm only half joking when I say that the impact of critics being stuck at home with small children really ought to be examined.

I kind of expected this to be closer to Floating Points “Elaenia” album and I’m a bit disappointed it’s not but it’s gorgeous in a different way.

the price of entry is very low here but I'm sure not in a mindset right now to dismiss something due to ease of enjoyment

Super weird complaining about this album getting attention though, as if someone who listens to jazz often only has the time to listen to one record each year.

twas ever thus

would it be better to think of this as ambient rather than jazz (or classical) or would that just be exchanging one load of baggage for another

Or if it’s complaining about media attention, then yeah but isn’t it obvious that an album between two well known artists from different genres would get reported and reviewed in at least twice the publications specialized in certain genred? Is it worth getting angry that ResidentAdvisor is reviewing this album instead of another “more experimental” jazz album? Do those other jazz albums feature a prominent electronic producer?

Not music-related, but Julie Mehretu is my favorite visual artist so it's wild to me that they used one of her paintings for the cover. It's really like every single aspect of this album was calculated to maximally attack the pleasure centers of my brain

This is lovely. Not far from what I kind of expected from it. It's recorded and produced immaculately and sounds incredible on a nice system or set of cans.

I think it's swell that some of my friends who usually only have time for yelpy indie or glossy pop checked this out. They certainly wouldn't have if I was just recommending it myself, like most of the shit I like and don't have anyone to share enthusiasm with. Kudos to the marketing departments responsible. Accessible middlebrow coffee table guff is a great gateway drug. For example, think about all the kids diving down ambient music rabbit holes because of the Minecraft soundtrack? Maybe because of this they'll all discover those "better" genre albums soon. Many won't, but some will get hooked.

That's fair - we all need our gateways and I'm sure that Promises will have turned a few people onto Black Unity, Thembi et al.

It actually surprises me that pop/indie listeners find this accessible. It's an extended composition without that much in the way of hooks or grooves, even compared to a lot of other jazz or classical releases.

I really believe all the extramusical "cool" factors are sustaining their interest where otherwise you'd be correct.

It's the ambient thing innit?

It is, I think!

what does Stanley Crouch think of this?

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 5:59 AM

this is king of rhetorical questions on this topic.

Wow this is not the record I would have ever thought would kick off this kind of vitriol.

I like that this thread is basically the same 7 posts on a loop

It actually surprises me that pop/indie listeners find this accessible. It's an extended composition without that much in the way of hooks or grooves, even compared to a lot of other jazz or classical releases.

― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 9:27 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I really believe all the extramusical "cool" factors are sustaining their interest where otherwise you'd be correct.

― Evan, Wednesday, February 9, 2022 9:32 AM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think calm music has been much more popular in the last few years (for obvious reasons, i find that so with myself as well)

though it's jazz i think it recalls music for airports (the meditative repeated theme) more than a lot of jazz, so i'd say it fits with the general popularity of ambient

I like that this thread is basically the same 7 posts on a loop

― rob, Wednesday, February 9, 2022 10:50 AM (two minutes ago)

if only Dorian still posted here

Hebden is more interesting than FP, but that's a low bar ;) He's done some ok stuff, but it never goes hard enough for me.

― Composition 40b (Stew), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 3:16 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

fair point. i think the hardest he goes is with more club-focused edits and stuff under "percussions" and some other name i'm forgetting, those have a nice raw feel. but i like him because he has a great sense of what is a hook, which is probably not what you're looking for.

There's room for coffee table dad-jazz AND edgy new work, it's not like this record is taking someone else's spot. I feel like the words "London Symphony Orchestra" are adding a lot of weight (perceived prestige & expectations) too...I bet if it was just billed as a duo collab with Pharoah & Floating Points then people wouldn't be nearly so irate.

This doesn't sound like coffee table Dad-jazz to me, though. Honestly, Julian Lage and Avataar might be closer to that description and I preferred those. Anyway, I'm saving the real vitriol for when Boomkat-classical starts topping polls.

Boomkat-classical

the real grifters, yeah?

(jokes)

sund4r posting vmic!

So, is boomkat classical the giles peterson of the classical world then?

(um, what is vmic?)

very much in character

what's boomkat classical?

Borrowed the term from this thread: The "classical" music you buy from Boomkat (2010): a thread to discuss Sylvain Chauveau, Johann Johannsson, Peter Broderick, Olafur Arnalds and others

What I've heard of the Richter/Johansson/Hauschka kind of thing. 130701-classical an even purer distillation: http://130701.com/artists/

I'm guessing the forthcoming Alabaster De Plume album on International Anthem will be this year's Promises. Praised in certain quarters, but hated in others haha! To get my tuppence in, I find his wide-eyed crusty vibe really precious and the music is derivative and basic. While I find Promises pleasant but dull, Gold actively annoys me.

vocals are gonna limit that record's horizon with big fans of Instrumentals Vol 1

If you want unearned vitriol, the uncritical love of everything on the International Anthem label gets me (and there is plenty of good stuff on that label, for sure).

The Sound Of My Feet On This Earth Is A Song To Your Spirit is instrumental. x post

ben lamar gay and the new jeff parker rule on international anthem

oh cool just went to their site and they are doing a jamie branch's fly or die live album, was lucky enough to catch them this summer, one of the three shows i've attended (was outside) and really loved it

Yep

Branch at first didn’t appeal to me but the live album changed my mind. Waiting to see them at Big Ears.

I'm still not sold but haven't listened to the live album

i will say she's has a really engaging and quirky stage presence and i'm sure that helped

also i hadn't heard her before i saw the band

yeah Jamie Branch live presence is def part of the package

I like both Fly Or Die albums, but probably because I lack critical listening skills

International Anthem have put out some of my favourite records of the past few years (Jamie Branch, Ben LaMar Gay, Angel Bat Dawid & Irreversible Entanglements especially) but of all the UK acts they could have gone for... That said, it kinda makes sense. One of the first things they did was that Rob Jacobs album, which was kind of post-Animal Collective quirky singer-songwriter stuff that I couldn't get with. The DePlume reminds me a bit of that. The instrumental album was nice enough and I can totally get why it hit the spot for folks during the first lockdown, but his quirky vocals are an acquired taste. Genuine LOLs at the Nigel Tufnel comparison.

Yeah, IA have put out some absolutely amazing music but they are far from infallible. (I’m kind of an Angel Bat Dawid skeptic, and I’m not really sold on Ben LaMar Gay, either.)

Also, Fly Or Die totally rule live. I saw them the day of the Kyle Rittenhouse court travesty and she had the whole crowd chanting "Fuck white supremacy". Over the course of the gig she turned that anger into joy, with Chad Taylor doing incredible things on drums. Big Ears line up is great: several IA faves plus Andrew Cyrille, Ches Smith's totally great contemporary jazz meets Haitian voudon group We All Break... damn!

Ches Smith and Chad Taylor are two of my main guys on drums, love them

Chad Taylor is a fave of mine too.

https://imgflip.com/i/64p0ax

https://i.imgflip.com/64p0ax.jpg

damn, i'm impressed tbh!