Van der Graaf Generator / Peter Hammill S& D, C or D?

Right, but without backing vocals, Mellotron, etc. his piano style can get monotonous. The Silent Corner stuff is also at an unrelenting pitch of intensity; I saw him twice in 2008 and the mix of songs from throughout his career helped create variety in mood and playing style.

Enormous 20-disc VdGG box set just announced for autumn release:

https://store.udiscovermusic.com/*/*/The-Charisma-Years/70JW0000000

CDs of his late 70s solo albums are dwindling away, I hope they're reissued soon, I haven't heard anything past Over, it's been a long time

Wish they'd abandoned the CDs-in-cardboard-slits approach and give the discs solid mini-LP sleeves. Packaging- if not content-wise the Bowie boxes do this best (hardback in line with spines).

The remastering of these albums c.2004 was on the loud and harsh side, so hopefully the new versions will be less so.

Oh, looks like there are 3-disc sets for each album getting the 5.1 treatment (H to He, Pawn Hearts, Godbluff, Still Life) with both mixes on CD and blu-ray, plus bonus tracks on the CDs.

And yeah, a Hammill box would be useful.

The remastering of these albums c.2004 was on the loud and harsh side, so hopefully the new versions will be less so.

Ha, holy cow yeah they were and yes a Hammill 70s solo box would be great cuz I always feel like I have everything and then it turns out he's got ANOTHER solo jawn

Oh good I’m glad the album are getting individual releases!

albums

This is a weird one, why shoot a video for this song? Did they think they could get a hit single with it? And who are the motley crew of people watching?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxWoYmb3MKw

It might have been shot as part of a TV appearance, I guess it's the most likely song on World Record to appeal to a casual viewer.
The ending revealing the people watching foreshadows the "Shout" video by Tears for Fears a bit.

those crowd shots are a real trip, everyone seems a little uh...unsure about these guys

Masks surely the obvious single off World Record

Giant box set alert!

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/814RENuri8S.jpg

CD 1: The Least We Can Do is Wave to Each Other
Darkness (11/11)
Refugees
White Hammer
Whatever Would Robert Have Said?
Out of My Book
After the Flood
BONUS TRACKS
Refugees (single version) – A-side April 1970
Boat of Millions of Years – B-side April 1970
Darkness (BBC Radio ‘Top Gear’ session 20 Jan 1970)
After the Flood (BBC Radio ‘Top Gear’ session 20 Jan 1970)

CD 2: H to He Who Am the Only One
Killer
House with No Door
The Emperor in His War Room
Lost
Pioneers Over C
BONUS TRACKS
Killer (first version) – Previously unreleased – Recorded at Trident Studios in July 1970
The Emperor in His War Room (first version) – Recorded at Trident Studios in July 1970
Lost (BBC Radio ‘Top Gear’ session 12 Oct 1970) – previously unreleased
Killer (BBC Radio ‘Top Gear’ session 12 Oct 1970) – previously unreleased

CD 3: Pawn Hearts
Lemmings (including Cog)
Man Erg
A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers:
a) Eyewitness b) Pictures / Lighthouse c) Eyewitness d) SHM e) Presence of the Night f) Kosmos Tours g) (Custard’s) Last Stand h) The Clot Thickens i) Land’s End (Sineline) j) We Go now
BONUS TRACKS
Man Erg (BBC Radio One Sounds of the Seventies session – 10 June 1971)
Theme One (BBC Radio One Sounds of the Seventies session – 10 June 1971)
Vision (BBC Radio One Sounds of the Seventies session – 10 June 1971)
Darkness (BBC Radio One Sounds of the Seventies session – 10 June 1971)

CD 4
Theme One (A-side of single Feb 1972)
W (B-side of single Feb 1972)
Squid / Octopus (from Pawn Heart sessions)
Angle of Incidents (from Pawn Heart sessions)
Ponker’s Theme (from Pawn Heart sessions)
Dimunitions (from Pawn Heart sessions)
W (first version) (from Pawn Heart sessions)
Theme One (original mix) (from Pawn Heart sessions)
Man Erg (BBC Radio One John Peel Concert 23 Sep 1971)
W (BBC Radio One John Peel Concert 23 Sep 1971)
Killer (BBC Radio One John Peel Concert 23 Sep 1971)
Refugees (BBC Radio One John Peel Concert 14 Dec 1971)

CD 5: Godbluff
The Undercover Man
Scorched Earth
Arrow
The Sleepwalkers
BONUS TRACKS
Scorched Earth (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 3 July 1975)
The Sleepwalkers (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 3 July 1975)

CD 6: Live in Rimini 9th August 1975
A Louse is Not a Home
(In the) Black Room / The Tower
Forsaken Gardens
Lemmings
Scorched Earth
Man-Erg

CD 7: Still Life
Pilgrims
Still Life
La Rossa
My Room (Waiting for Wonderland)
Childlike Faith in Childhood’s End
BONUS TRACKS
Gog (live) – Recorded at the Theatr Gwynedd, Bangor, Wales 10 May 1975
Still Life (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 1 April 1976)
La Rossa (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 1 April 1976)

CD 8: World Record
When She Comes
A Place to Survive
Masks
Meurglys III (The Songwriters Guild)
Wondering
BONUS TRACKS:
When She Comes (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 11 November 1976)
Masks (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 11 November 1976)
Part One (Approx. 35% of) Meurglys III (The Songwriters Guild) – B-side of single Oct 1976 – Previously unreleased on CD

CD 9: Live at Maison de la Mutualite, Paris (6 Dec 1976 – previously unreleased)
Arrow
When She Comes
Masks
Still Life
Lemmings
Childlike Faith in Childhood’s End

CD 10: Live at Maison de la Mutualite, Paris (6 Dec 1976 – previously unreleased)
Meurglys III (The Songwriter’s Guild)
Gog
Sleepwalkers
Killer
Man-Erg

CD 11: The Quiet Zone / The Pleasure Dome
Lizard Play
The Habit of the Broken Heart
The Siren Song
Last Frame
The Wave
Cat’s Eye / Yellow Fever (Running)
The Sphinx in the Face
Chemical World
The Sphinx Returns
BONUS TRACKS
Door
Ship of Fools (B-side of French single from Sep 1977)
The Wave (demo version)
Cat’s Eye / Yellow Fever (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 24 October 1977)
The Sphinx in the Face (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 24 October 1977)
(Fragments of) A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers / Sleepwalker’s End (BBC Radio One John Peel session – 24 October 1977)

CD 12: Vital (live album)
Ship of Fools
Still Life
Last Frame
Mirror Images
Medley: A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers / Sleepwalkers

CD 13: Vital (live album)
Pioneers Over C
Sci-Finance
Door
Urban / Killer / Urban
Nadir’s Big Chance

CD 14: H to He Who Am the Only One (New stereo mix)
Killer
House with No Door
The Emperor in His War Room
Lost
Pioneers Over C

CD 15: Pawn Hearts (New stereo mix)
Lemmings (including Cog)
Man Erg
A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers:
a) Eyewitness b) Pictures / Lighthouse c) Eyewitness d) SHM e) Presence of the Night f) Kosmos Tours g) (Custard’s) Last Stand h) The Clot Thickens i) Land’s End (Sineline) j) We Go now
BONUS TRACKS
Theme One (new stereo mix)
W (new stereo mix)

CD 16: Godbluff (New stereo mix)
The Undercover Man
Scorched Earth
Arrow
The Sleepwalkers

CD 17: Still Life (New stereo mix)
Pilgrims
Still Life
La Rossa
My Room (Waiting for Wonderland)
Childlike Faith in Childhood’s End

Blu-ray #1: ‘H to He Who Am the Only One’ and ‘Pawn Hearts’
BOTH ALBUMS IN HIGH RESOLUTION 5.1 SURROUND SOUND MIX / NEW STEREO MIX / ORIGINAL STEREO MIX
H to He Who Am the Only One
Killer
House with No Door
The Emperor in His War Room
Lost
Pioneers Over C
Pawn Hearts
Lemmings (including Cog)
Man Erg
A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers:
a) Eyewitness b) Pictures / Lighthouse c) Eyewitness d) SHM e) Presence of the Night f) Kosmos Tours g) (Custard’s) Last Stand h) The Clot Thickens i) Land’s End (Sineline) j) We Go now

Blu-ray #2: ‘Godbluff’ and ‘Still Life’
BOTH ALBUMS IN HIGH RESOLUTION 5.1 SURROUND SOUND MIX / NEW STEREO MIX / ORIGINAL STEREO MIX
Godbluff
The Undercover Man
Scorched Earth
Arrow
The Sleepwalkers
Still Life
Pilgrims
La Rossa
My Room (Waiting for Wonderland)
Childlike Faith in Childhood’s End

Blu-ray #3: The Video Vaults
Darkness (‘Beat Club’ – German TV 23 June 1970) – previously unreleased
Whatever Would Robert Have Said (‘Beat Club’ – German TV 23 June 1970) – previously unreleased
Lost (‘Pop Deux’ Filmed at The Bataclan Theatre, Paris 18 March 1972 – Previously unreleased)
Killer (‘Pop Deux’ Filmed at The Bataclan Theatre, Paris 18 March 1972 – Previously unreleased)
Octopus (‘Pop Deux’ Filmed at The Bataclan Theatre, Paris 18 March 1972 – Previously unreleased)
Theme One (‘Pop Shop’ Recorded 23 March 1972 for RTBF, Belgium) First official release.
A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers (‘Pop Shop’ Recorded 23 March 1972 for RTBF, Belgium) First official release.
The Undercover Man (Live in Charleroi Palais des Expos – 27 September 1975) First official release.
Arrow (Live in Charleroi Palais des Expos – 27 September 1975) First official release.
Scorched Earth (Live in Charleroi Palais des Expos – 27 September 1975) First official release.
Sleepwalkers (Live in Charleroi Palais des Expos – 27 September 1975) First official release.
Wondering (Charisma promotional film 1976) Previously unreleased
Cat’s Eye (Charisma promotional film) Previously unreleased
Van der Graaf in Concert (The Kohfidisch Open Air Festival, Austria 17 June 1978 recorded by ORF TV). Previously unreleased

how are the new remasters?

shit, apparently they're pretty good

It's already out? I should get this

is any of this being released separately. Can't afford the full box.
Did prefer the previous remasters to the original cds but I think a lot of people didn't .

Yeah there are separate reissues of H to He, Pawn Hearts, Godbluff & Still Life.

if they pressed those on vinyl they'd make a killing - VdGG albums are pretty hard to come by

Yeah, vinyl reissues of those four are planned.

Listening to Still Life now, I'm taken aback by how good it is to hear Peter's voice again (it's been several years since my last Hammill) but getting the CDs out the packaging of the new reissues is a bitch, I ripped the cardboard by accident.

still life is the best one! that 20cd box set it up on streaming things!

"House With No Door" is so fantastic. Reminds me of his solo stuff quite a bit (which I tend to prefer).

Don't know anything about Isildurs Bane, 2 albums with them, didn't expect so many collaborations.

Regret not getting those remasters of The Future Now, pH7 and A Black Box when they were cheap. I still haven't registered at Discogs yet.

Streamed a bunch of the box over the wknd, new remasters def improvement over the last round which were basically unlistenable, am really tempted to buy the thing

still bothers me that the recent vinyl reissues don't use the new mix. I am pretty sure it's not the brickwalled 2005 mixes either. I've only got The Least We Can Do and I'm starting to think there just isn't a good sounding version of that album. I think it was just recorded lousy.

Isildur's Bane is one of those Swedish prog groups that's somehow been around for like 40 years. I've heard parts of the albums they did with Hammill and they are really chaotic in spots, kind of electronic and really dissonant sometimes. I need to listen to them again, they were really fun I thought. definitely not for everyone though.

Always impressed how they were able to reinvent themselves as a post-punk band for The Quiet Zone / The Pleasure Dome & Vital

Also I haven't listened to Present in a minute man I forgot how great this record is

Fuckin hell A Black Box is amaaaaazing isn't it

I'm listening to samples of his 2023 remake of his 1988 album In a Foreign Town, and I'm afraid his voice is in very rough shape. His tone, range, and pitch are all worse for wear; there were points when I could have mistaken him for modern-day Roger Waters. I believe he smoked for many years but quit a while ago.
I saw him a few times fifteen years ago and his voice had held up very well till then; obviously 60 is not 75, and he is still delivering the sense of the songs, but it's humbling to hear this (inevitable?) decay, highlighted on songs he first recorded 35 years ago.

I wouldn't say he's anywhere near as bad as Waters. I agree he's starting to sound his age a bit but his voice has still held up a lot better than some of his contemporaries. tbh I'm not sure why he decided to re-record these two. I guess they do sound less plastic but removing Jackson's sax parts is a bummer.

the whole relationship with Jaxon has been a mystery for forever

have to admit i've not been attentive to Peter's work for ages, i hope he's free to do whatever takes his fancy for as long as he's around, but i feel like ever since the heart attack whatever happens is just a bonus

yeah it's bizarre especially given the whole point of the reunion was the realization that they weren't gonna be around forever. I mean I respect them for not making it public like a lot of bands do but it feels like there's still a lot of bad blood there for whatever reason.

I haven't really kept up with him either, though I remember his mid-00's albums being pretty good. I liked the album he did with Isildur's Bane called "In Amazonia"...there's another one out there but I haven't heard it yet. as brilliant as Hammill is I never found him to be totally engaging as a solo artist. feel like he needs other musicians around him to truly bring out his best. hence why the mid-70s albums which featured the VdGG lineup were my favorite. as I suspect they are for most people. the K-group stuff is quite good too. but yea the albums where it's just him with a guitar and synthesizers....I mean yeah the dude writes great tunes, but his voice has such power, he needs more than that.

btw I am guessing probably none of you have heard of Isildur's Bane, but I will point out one of their early albums has a nude male ass on the cover, so their bona fides are legit

yeah maybe K-Group is as close as we get to Hammill outside of VDGG. it doesn't even matter to me, maybe it matters more to him. a lot of the public reasons for VDGG breaking up were purely practical/financial but you wonder if there's other things going on in private and that's ok, they can stay private, not my business

i have not heard Isildur's Bane frogbs but god loves a Tolk ref

wait is the nude male ass a "ring" reference 😮😔

yeah it's bizarre especially given the whole point of the reunion was the realization that they weren't gonna be around forever. I mean I respect them for not making it public like a lot of bands do but it feels like there's still a lot of bad blood there for whatever reason.

:woman_shrugging: i mean none of my fucking business. just because they worked together for a long time doesn't put personal details like that within my scope as a fan.

btw I am guessing probably none of you have heard of Isildur's Bane, but I will point out one of their early albums has a nude male ass on the cover, so their bona fides are legit

― frogbs, Friday, January 12, 2024 1:34 PM (twenty-five seconds ago)

_never heard of isildur's bane_? the third act on the bill on day one of NEARFest in 2002? you _wound_ me, friend. do you think i am wholly ignorant of scandinavian prog? i have heard every single artist named in the Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock, even that ones which do not actually exist. my friend, i am so enthusiastic about prog that i boof prog every single day. and here you suggest i do not know isildur's bane!

i admit that i've never actually _heard_ isildur's bane before, though. i'm listening to a compilation called "lost eggs", because the title is a heckin' mood. the first track is really bad. the seventh track is twenty seconds of synthesizer fart noises. tracks 3-6 are legit tho.

i'd also never seen the cover of "sea reflections" damn that is a fantastically terrible '80s private-press rock album cover. the artist, catharina rysten, has a swedish wikipedia page tho. so the naked guy is standing in water staring at a UFO which is beaming up a saxophone?

ass is probably not a "ring" reference although one of the tracks on the album is entitled "Bilbo"

i don't think you can truly love any of the VDGG people without having tolerance for very questionable aesthetic decisions and in that spirit i hope they all carry on for eternity

I had heard that Jackson was let go because he had signed off on, or otherwise participated in, some European VDGG concert or documentary DVD that the others didn't want officially validated; and/or that he was not making himself available for agreed-upon schedules around recording and touring.

Nothing salacious hidden in the paragraph above, just didn't want to accidentally make any revelations for those who don't want to know.

the fact that they were billed above Echolyn is a crime if you ask me! that 2002 lineup is pretty dire but the years after looked pretty good!!

I have heard some of their 80's records, they are hilariously bad, but also kinda fun. from what I've heard of their 90's stuff (the "Mind" records) they definitely got better but they're good in sort of in the way the Flower Kings are, they seem to love to pump out hour-plus CDs with like 10 minutes of good stuff on them

on the records they did with Hammill it sounds like they're trying to ape VdGG and IMO they do a pretty good job of it. no organ or sax but they get the doom riffing right!

fwiw I did hear some rumours about the situation with Jaxon, nothing controversial but more a question of commitment and creative ambitions.

xpost

do you mean K-Group? honestly never realised that existed beyond a PH backing band

and without going into all the contradictions that i might argue later, i figure Peter's failingest failing is he doesn't care very much about how his music *sounds*, or idk i'm not saying that right but he feels like a "message over context" guy more than any other

yeah big problem for him from like the mid-80s throughout most of the 90's, I think his albums from like 1998 on sound a bit punchier and more interesting but even still a lot of them feel like the last 40 years of Todd Rundgren, where they sound more like demos than a finished product

the VdGG remasters he did in 2005 were pretty awful too, totally brickwalled and blown out. I've heard the recent remasters were a lot better but for some reason the vinyl reissues don't use them. I got a copy of The Least We Can Do... and it sounds horrible, just like every other edition of it I've heard.

currently listening to the other album with Isildur's Bane, called In Disequilibrium. not sure where the actual 'songs' are but still it's pretty interesting, moreso than the reformed VdGG albums I guess. Hammill sounds good on it too, even though this was recorded only a few years ago.

"Every Bloody Emperor" is arguably the best thing they ever wrote which just makes me sad about all the other reunion stuff

and without going into all the contradictions that i might argue later, i figure Peter's failingest failing is he doesn't care very much about how his music *sounds*

Seems to be an issue with a few prog musicians, I had a solo album by the guy from Univers Zero that sounded like it was being played on a cheap Korg factory strings preset. Totally unlistenable.

I've noticed that with some full bands as well, specifically in the neo-prog stuff that isn't IQ or Marillion, or some of the various imitators from the 90s like Glass Hammer or Citizen Cain. the musicians sound like they're up to the task but there's no power in the music - ugly guitar sounds, cheap keyboards, drums that sound so thin it's hard to believe they're actually real. I agree, it's basically unlistenable, even if the music itself is good

Halfway there pretty much has it right with regard to Jackson’s dismissal from the group in 2006. Hammill hasn't gone into the gory details but he hasn't exactly made a secret of the reasons either, he addressed the issue with some frankness in a 2007 newsletter.

I like the reunion albums. They don’t all feel indispensable but there are great things on each.

Peter's failingest failing is he doesn't care very much about how his music *sounds*, or idk i'm not saying that right but he feels like a "message over context" guy more than any other

...

I've noticed that with some full bands as well, specifically in the neo-prog stuff that isn't IQ or Marillion, or some of the various imitators from the 90s like Glass Hammer or Citizen Cain. the musicians sound like they're up to the task but there's no power in the music - ugly guitar sounds, cheap keyboards, drums that sound so thin it's hard to believe they're actually real. I agree, it's basically unlistenable, even if the music itself is good

I reviewed their 2016 album and yeah, that was exactly the problem.

I've noticed that with some full bands as well, specifically in the neo-prog stuff that isn't IQ or Marillion, or some of the various imitators from the 90s like Glass Hammer or Citizen Cain. the musicians sound like they're up to the task but there's no power in the music - ugly guitar sounds, cheap keyboards, drums that sound so thin it's hard to believe they're actually real. I agree, it's basically unlistenable, even if the music itself is good

― frogbs

it can cut both ways. i mean, the lowrey is just about the cheapest, shittiest, most obnoxious organ i can think of. i swear to god i sometimes think a stylophone has a more mellifluous tone. doesn't keep soft machine from being all-time.

you're right, though, that a lot of prog focuses on CONTENT to the exclusion of form. '80s frank zappa might be the apotheosis of this. i know this is a man who valorizes ugliness, but there are far better ways to be ugly than the way those fucking '80s albums sound. zappa isn't abrasive, he's just demonstrating a more advanced version of the profound timbral bad taste exhibited by emerson, lake, and palmer.

in general, though, i think prog's often-questionable aesthetic decisions* constitute a great deal of its appeal. so much of gentle giant's music is completely antithetical to...

i don't know _how_ to describe gentle giant, other than to say "WHY THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE HETEROSEXUAL?!?!?!?!?". gentle giant's music would be _so_ much better if it was _queer_. prog rock got put down all the time for being fey and mincing like those were bad things. there's so much queerness in prog rock. keith emerson in his leather-boy getup thrusting his knife into his keyboard repeatedly. everything ever produced by genesis between 1971 and 1974. kevin ayers' eyeliner. peter hammill's over-the-top theatricality. _synthesizers_, oh my god, combine synthesizers, kink, and communism and you have transfem culture. even when jethro tull lucked into having a trans woman in their band, there was nothing remotely trans about them _musically_, despite their being fronted by a panto flautist in an oversized codpiece. prog bands kept putting artwork of wonderfully callipygean men on their album covers and have consistently been trying to "no homo" those creative decisions ever since. This shit ought to be the APEX of queer culture, but damn near everybody involved in this shit was disgustingly heterosexual. (shout-outs to bob drake, though. thank christ for bob drake.)

* (i'm listening to _facelift_ now and woo boy it is a BONANZA on that front... someone once postulated that the master tapes were soaked in bongwater for six weeks before being pressed to vinyl, and honestly, i find this theory plausible)