I was also going through a weird personal time during my outbursts in that thread, which can't have helped! But I really do think I felt similarly to j. - that I was engaging in what I thought was good faith, only to be dismissed as coming from a morally inferior position
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:25 (three years ago) link
It struck me as a massive misunderstanding that had no chance whatsoever of being resolved on ILX.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:27 (three years ago) link
I haven't even found the j. bit yet! Gonna keep scrolling...
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:28 (three years ago) link
Most of the criticism I've heard is of the way she treats non-passing trans people. The things that I've seen of hers that relate to this I have tended to read as being framed as an admission of guilt, bad thoughts that she still thinks even though she knows she shouldn't. But the thing is, that guilt doesn't stop those things from being extremely damaging to actual real people in the world, and being spouted by one of the most visible trans voices doubles the damage.
Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on Contrapoints myself because I cede that ground to people who have lived experience that I don't. I just found it very weird that imago described it as extremism, but now I see he is a major stan, so that goes some way to explaining it.
― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:29 (three years ago) link
anyone getting upset in that thread from the reaction they got should be glad they never posted something stupid about house music in 2006 that vahid replied to
― himpathy with the devil (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:30 (three years ago) link
Sorry for derailing this thread after it went in an interesting direction, too. I just really wanted to know what imago meant by it.
xp
― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:31 (three years ago) link
bad thoughts that she still thinks even though she knows she shouldn't
Iirc she treats it as internalized transphobia and it's clearly a source of suffering for her as well.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:34 (three years ago) link
^^^
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:35 (three years ago) link
I'm going to go back to some of the stuff being discussed before - it is interesting to me that a lot of the people posting about not being some kind of ILx Character are names that I recognise and would definitely characterise as being regulars. I mean, mike! You're the disco king.
I'm pretty much a nobody in terms of posting style, I've just been here so long that I'm stuck to the place. I also don't post in a lot of threads that I'm interested in because I feel like other people have got to my points first, or I think my points would be overly obvious, or because it's something that I have studied and don't want to say something stupid about that will be there forever and one day I'll see it again and it'll make me want to die.
― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:37 (three years ago) link
xpost Iirc she treats it as internalized transphobia and it's clearly a source of suffering for her as well.
Well yeah, that's basically what I said. But I don't know that expressing it in some of the ways I've seen her do (I'm thinking tweets now rather than the videos) is reasonable with such a large following. Basically, imagine if I had thousands of followers and posted some of my worst suicidal ideation posts. I would be hurting and endangering a lot of people. Would it still be okay, because it's a source of hurt for me too?
― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:40 (three years ago) link
and this is when i lose the plot re such threads and disconnect.i think i know what folks are on about, but i dare not ask for fear of chaos.hence : 'why are you not posting' becomes all the more relevant.
― mark e, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:42 (three years ago) link
Sorry to self-indulgently harp on, but here's a good example of where that thread went well for Kate and I, imo. I now realise that it was bad of me to describe Kate's views on Contrapoints or various shades of liberalism as extremism - that's quite othering of me, and I retract it (after all, are we not all extremists in some regard?) This bit I'm linking is where Kate and I had what I believe to have been quite a productive discussion, where I challenged her on some of her hopelessness rhetoric and even managed to extract, a few posts later, an admission of hope! Meanwhile, she eloquently and thoughtfully put forward the reasons for her own pessimistic perspective and made what I'd considered to be the extremity of her position much more explicable and sympathetic:
Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:42 (three years ago) link
emil.y, if you're curious, she addresses this in section IV of her 'Canceling' video, of which there is a very helpful transcript:
https://www.contrapoints.com/transcripts/canceling
― pomenitul, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:45 (three years ago) link
When I said 'a sort of extremism' I think I meant that Kate had at times conflated her experience of Contrapoints as someone who didn't speak for her own experience - fine - with someone who should be mistrusted or morally castigated. In posts subsequent to the one I linked there, I think Kate clarified and refined her position in a manner that made it clearly not extremist or overly judgemental. Reading through it, I'm struck that progress was made. I still need to find the j. stuff haha
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:46 (three years ago) link
Basically, imagine if I had thousands of followers and posted some of my worst suicidal ideation posts. I would be hurting and endangering a lot of people. Would it still be okay, because it's a source of hurt for me too?
― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:40 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
imo yes it would. I have seen you post your pain on here and on Twitter and I'm glad you feel able to do so. Keep reaching out no matter who's listening
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:48 (three years ago) link
otm
― pomenitul, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:51 (three years ago) link
Hmm, hmm. I'll take a look at that transcript, pom. I do think this is a bit too much of a derail for this thread (and I'm also a little wary about the discussion being driven by non-trans people and about a poster not present) so I'm going to step back from it. I will say I really miss Kate's presence here, and wish she was posting again.
― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:53 (three years ago) link
Absolutely. Me too.
― imago, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:55 (three years ago) link
Agreed.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:56 (three years ago) link
Is there anyone who knows her offboard that could perhaps reach out to her to see if she's ok?
― Oor Neechy, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:58 (three years ago) link
OK I've read basically most of it. Here is my Fair Breakdown:
j.'s departure was a bit soft imo. yes, he politely and thoughtfully laid out his apologiae for the modern liberal tradition, only to be accosted by Kate, silby et al, but I thought that stuff was largely quite bracing tbh - it was Good Content and I'm sad that j. felt compelled to depart. for sure, there had been ad hominem presumptions of bad faith, but silby was operating from a place that was largely quite funny, and Kate from a place that was above all anguished. what galled j. I suppose was the effort he was putting into his posts, only for them to be met with what might have seemed like dismissiveness. but j. also had a LOT of people largely on board with him and his arguments (ahem), and it seems like it was really that Aimless post that broke him (and I'm not surprised tbh).
My recommendation is that j. returns to ILX and tries to not mind it when, for example, silby gets zingy or Kate gets despairing, but continues to plough his argumentative furrow, because as I say I could detect plenty of agreement towards his posts, and I also think that after he left, the conversation continued to improve (not BECAUSE he left, lol, but if anything powered by the spirit of thoughtful analysis his posting had engendered, and ongoing reflection on all sides).
I'd forgotten what a central role I myself played in that whole farrago, so I also feel a bit guilty for my part in what was, yes, a bracing argument, but not one without its traumas.
― imago, Friday, 5 March 2021 00:42 (three years ago) link
I mean i keep rubbing my eyes at the thread title you are doing this in
― beware the ídes of mairt (darraghmac), Friday, 5 March 2021 00:44 (three years ago) link
tl;dr: if you think silby has driven you off ilx then you've misunderstood silby
― imago, Friday, 5 March 2021 00:46 (three years ago) link
#onethread
That strikes me as a fair assessment of that FFA btw.
― pomenitul, Friday, 5 March 2021 00:48 (three years ago) link
leave Future Farmers of America out of this
― superdeep borehole (harbl), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:22 (three years ago) link
The finnish football association would like to make it known that they have no idea what is going on, generally
― beware the ídes of mairt (darraghmac), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:25 (three years ago) link
I have no memory of this at all!
― Canon in Deez (silby), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:27 (three years ago) link
I wasn’t going to post in this thread, because that would be posting, but now I’ve posted
― Canon in Deez (silby), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:28 (three years ago) link
Tbf there's posting and there's posting.
― pomenitul, Friday, 5 March 2021 01:28 (three years ago) link
Wow I posted a lot, actually.
― Canon in Deez (silby), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:35 (three years ago) link
^this was exactly my own reaction, haha
― imago, Friday, 5 March 2021 01:37 (three years ago) link
I've averaged two (2) posts a month for the last thirteen (13) years, ama.
― Vernon Locke, Friday, 5 March 2021 01:38 (three years ago) link
probably the healthiest posting rate tbh
― superdeep borehole (harbl), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:42 (three years ago) link
ama
Are you not worried about breaking your remarkable streak?
― pomenitul, Friday, 5 March 2021 01:46 (three years ago) link
Whove yall fpd
― beware the ídes of mairt (darraghmac), Friday, 5 March 2021 01:52 (three years ago) link
why are you not pooping
― Red Nerussi (Neanderthal), Friday, 5 March 2021 02:05 (three years ago) link
F'n Post Office holding up my posts. They are stuck in a router in Omaha.
― earlnash, Friday, 5 March 2021 02:09 (three years ago) link
Serves you right for perpetrating posting fraud.
― pomenitul, Friday, 5 March 2021 02:10 (three years ago) link
*poster fraud
― pomenitul, Friday, 5 March 2021 02:11 (three years ago) link
Postal lurkers strike
― beware the ídes of mairt (darraghmac), Friday, 5 March 2021 02:16 (three years ago) link
maybe I will post tonight
― brimstead, Friday, 5 March 2021 02:32 (three years ago) link
someday i hope to write the greatest ilx post in history
― treeship., Friday, 5 March 2021 02:34 (three years ago) link
I want to say why Im not posting but my 57000+ posts kind of belie that I suppose. But I'll go with Cruts "Ive embarrased myself enough".
Also, too many dicks on the dancefloor.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 5 March 2021 02:40 (three years ago) link
Nah. I usually post a bunch at once, then go quiet for months. See you in November!
I flag posts, not people.
There's enough shit on ilx as it is.
― Vernon Locke, Friday, 5 March 2021 03:15 (three years ago) link
wow it's amazing how angry j's post made me, dude fuck off along with your "academic" "intellectual" buddies Oor Neechy and Euler, gee it's such a shame that you can't have a thread on ILX where you deny trans people's lived experiences right to their face without getting pushback (a lot of which was funny tbh). do any of you care that it probably made Kate leave? all three of you suck.
― I like signing up to dead sites (sleeve), Friday, 5 March 2021 03:38 (three years ago) link
no I'm not posting itt again,no bookmark, fuck you
― I like signing up to dead sites (sleeve), Friday, 5 March 2021 03:39 (three years ago) link
branwell made kate leave iirc
― call all destroyer, Friday, 5 March 2021 03:43 (three years ago) link
Can we not with this yet again ugh
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 5 March 2021 03:44 (three years ago) link
sorry, that's just very literally on the record and it should be clear where that responsibility lies.
― call all destroyer, Friday, 5 March 2021 03:51 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsW040wrMNA
― J. Sam, Friday, 5 March 2021 03:59 (three years ago) link