Why are you not posting

yep, and that's a very thoughtful appraisal of a strain of moral purity-test I've occasionally lost it at as well

that said I'd need to read the relevant thread again to adjudge the motivations and good/bad faith of your various interlocutors

what I will say is that, bless Kate and I hope she's able to return to ILX now, but her disdain of, for example, Contrapoints' extremely sensitive handlings of public-eye transphobia demonstrated a sort of extremism that I think did her no favours above all

xp too late eephus! :)

lmao i opened that thread to play post-hoc adjudicator and found alphie's most cuntish treatment of me and my most powerful counterblast, great times

funny how a thread about not posting is full of posts with high character counts

I don’t post on the bobbins thread because I’m a poser but I feel ok posting on specific artist/label/style/scene threads

oh god i was really on a tear ahaha, definitely had more reason to quit than j. did but my obtuse self-confidence kept me here ffs

I did not expect (or intend) this thread to be taken seriously but I'm glad it happened.

Part of the reason I keep posting is so as not to have to answer questions such as these. DO U SEE?

what I will say is that, bless Kate and I hope she's able to return to ILX now, but her disdain of, for example, Contrapoints' extremely sensitive handlings of public-eye transphobia demonstrated a sort of extremism that I think did her no favours above all

― imago

This is completely boggling to me. I think Contrapoints has done some worthwhile stuff but most of my trans* friends are wary at best and outright damning the majority of the time. I can't see disdain for her as "extremism" at all.

(I tried to go into that thread and see any evidence of aforementioned "extremism" but it's far too big to slog through)

Fwiw I don't think lj was referring to that thread in particular, but maybe I'm misremembering.

The free speech and creepy liberalism thread was where I lost the plot at some of my UK compatriots and also attempted to engage Kate at length about some of her statements. This was long after j. had been warded off I think. I found Kate to be at least...arguable-with. We were having an argument, it was fine. I was much more irked by certain others. But in general I think it was a losing move to post to that thread, which is a shame, but I was always going to be on the defensive

I also hope we're able to fully have it out over Contrapoints one day

Is this about the stuff she discusses in her 'Canceling' video or is there more to it? I haven't been paying close attention.

I think it's largely about some people saying CONTRAPOINTS IS A TRANSMEDICALIST and other people saying WE STAN WE STAN and the actual truth being that Contrapoints is just a very open-minded person who thinks about important and thorny issues from a lot of different angles without ever being particularly dogmatic, whomst we stan ;)

Hyper-consequentialism ftw.

I was also going through a weird personal time during my outbursts in that thread, which can't have helped! But I really do think I felt similarly to j. - that I was engaging in what I thought was good faith, only to be dismissed as coming from a morally inferior position

It struck me as a massive misunderstanding that had no chance whatsoever of being resolved on ILX.

I haven't even found the j. bit yet! Gonna keep scrolling...

Most of the criticism I've heard is of the way she treats non-passing trans people. The things that I've seen of hers that relate to this I have tended to read as being framed as an admission of guilt, bad thoughts that she still thinks even though she knows she shouldn't. But the thing is, that guilt doesn't stop those things from being extremely damaging to actual real people in the world, and being spouted by one of the most visible trans voices doubles the damage.

Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on Contrapoints myself because I cede that ground to people who have lived experience that I don't. I just found it very weird that imago described it as extremism, but now I see he is a major stan, so that goes some way to explaining it.

anyone getting upset in that thread from the reaction they got should be glad they never posted something stupid about house music in 2006 that vahid replied to

Sorry for derailing this thread after it went in an interesting direction, too. I just really wanted to know what imago meant by it.

xp

bad thoughts that she still thinks even though she knows she shouldn't

Iirc she treats it as internalized transphobia and it's clearly a source of suffering for her as well.

^^^

I'm going to go back to some of the stuff being discussed before - it is interesting to me that a lot of the people posting about not being some kind of ILx Character are names that I recognise and would definitely characterise as being regulars. I mean, mike! You're the disco king.

I'm pretty much a nobody in terms of posting style, I've just been here so long that I'm stuck to the place. I also don't post in a lot of threads that I'm interested in because I feel like other people have got to my points first, or I think my points would be overly obvious, or because it's something that I have studied and don't want to say something stupid about that will be there forever and one day I'll see it again and it'll make me want to die.

xpost Iirc she treats it as internalized transphobia and it's clearly a source of suffering for her as well.

Well yeah, that's basically what I said. But I don't know that expressing it in some of the ways I've seen her do (I'm thinking tweets now rather than the videos) is reasonable with such a large following. Basically, imagine if I had thousands of followers and posted some of my worst suicidal ideation posts. I would be hurting and endangering a lot of people. Would it still be okay, because it's a source of hurt for me too?

and this is when i lose the plot re such threads and disconnect.
i think i know what folks are on about, but i dare not ask for fear of chaos.
hence : 'why are you not posting' becomes all the more relevant.

Sorry to self-indulgently harp on, but here's a good example of where that thread went well for Kate and I, imo. I now realise that it was bad of me to describe Kate's views on Contrapoints or various shades of liberalism as extremism - that's quite othering of me, and I retract it (after all, are we not all extremists in some regard?) This bit I'm linking is where Kate and I had what I believe to have been quite a productive discussion, where I challenged her on some of her hopelessness rhetoric and even managed to extract, a few posts later, an admission of hope! Meanwhile, she eloquently and thoughtfully put forward the reasons for her own pessimistic perspective and made what I'd considered to be the extremity of her position much more explicable and sympathetic:

Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

emil.y, if you're curious, she addresses this in section IV of her 'Canceling' video, of which there is a very helpful transcript:

https://www.contrapoints.com/transcripts/canceling

When I said 'a sort of extremism' I think I meant that Kate had at times conflated her experience of Contrapoints as someone who didn't speak for her own experience - fine - with someone who should be mistrusted or morally castigated. In posts subsequent to the one I linked there, I think Kate clarified and refined her position in a manner that made it clearly not extremist or overly judgemental. Reading through it, I'm struck that progress was made. I still need to find the j. stuff haha

Basically, imagine if I had thousands of followers and posted some of my worst suicidal ideation posts. I would be hurting and endangering a lot of people. Would it still be okay, because it's a source of hurt for me too?

― emil.y, Thursday, 4 March 2021 23:40 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

imo yes it would. I have seen you post your pain on here and on Twitter and I'm glad you feel able to do so. Keep reaching out no matter who's listening

otm

Hmm, hmm. I'll take a look at that transcript, pom. I do think this is a bit too much of a derail for this thread (and I'm also a little wary about the discussion being driven by non-trans people and about a poster not present) so I'm going to step back from it. I will say I really miss Kate's presence here, and wish she was posting again.

Absolutely. Me too.

Agreed.

Is there anyone who knows her offboard that could perhaps reach out to her to see if she's ok?

OK I've read basically most of it. Here is my Fair Breakdown:

j.'s departure was a bit soft imo. yes, he politely and thoughtfully laid out his apologiae for the modern liberal tradition, only to be accosted by Kate, silby et al, but I thought that stuff was largely quite bracing tbh - it was Good Content and I'm sad that j. felt compelled to depart. for sure, there had been ad hominem presumptions of bad faith, but silby was operating from a place that was largely quite funny, and Kate from a place that was above all anguished. what galled j. I suppose was the effort he was putting into his posts, only for them to be met with what might have seemed like dismissiveness. but j. also had a LOT of people largely on board with him and his arguments (ahem), and it seems like it was really that Aimless post that broke him (and I'm not surprised tbh).

My recommendation is that j. returns to ILX and tries to not mind it when, for example, silby gets zingy or Kate gets despairing, but continues to plough his argumentative furrow, because as I say I could detect plenty of agreement towards his posts, and I also think that after he left, the conversation continued to improve (not BECAUSE he left, lol, but if anything powered by the spirit of thoughtful analysis his posting had engendered, and ongoing reflection on all sides).

I'd forgotten what a central role I myself played in that whole farrago, so I also feel a bit guilty for my part in what was, yes, a bracing argument, but not one without its traumas.

I mean i keep rubbing my eyes at the thread title you are doing this in

tl;dr: if you think silby has driven you off ilx then you've misunderstood silby

#onethread

That strikes me as a fair assessment of that FFA btw.

leave Future Farmers of America out of this

The finnish football association would like to make it known that they have no idea what is going on, generally

I have no memory of this at all!

I wasn’t going to post in this thread, because that would be posting, but now I’ve posted

Tbf there's posting and there's posting.

Wow I posted a lot, actually.

^this was exactly my own reaction, haha

I've averaged two (2) posts a month for the last thirteen (13) years, ama.

probably the healthiest posting rate tbh

ama

Are you not worried about breaking your remarkable streak?

Whove yall fpd