genesis: duke

Loved the long-form review in Pitchfork today (was worried it was just going to be the history of the band without actually discussing the album, but he gets there, eventually).
But then at the end, it says:

They had made better albums (nearly everything from the ’70s)

sure why not

That review was like the equivalent of an epic side-long suite. Very on point.

That was a nice piece. Also, I think, the first time Pitchfork has had anything substantial on Genesis.

"Misunderstanding" sounds a lot more like "Hot Fun in the Summertime" than that Toto sound. (Not surprisingly, the similarity was consciously by design. I'm surprised a songwriting dispute has yet to come up since the bar for litigable plagiarism has inched lower and lower over the years.)

*Toto song

yeah i mentioned that in the songs that sound like other songs thread. it’s a clear sly stone lift, but with a shuffle beat that is kinda similar to that toto song

as if Wind and Wuthering and ATTWT never happened

nah the writer has it right, W&W and ATTWT are both way better than Duke

"Misunderstanding" sounds a lot more like "Hot Fun in the Summertime" than that Toto sound.

I don't disagree but Phil explicitly says in the DVD documentary that accompanied the reissue a few years back that the song is based around him playing that Toto shuffle.

Didn't agree that was the album that caused a number of fans to get off the bus, always thought Abacab and s/t would have been more obvious points

Well yeah Duke was the last one I ever bought, and liked it with reservations. Heard enough of Abacab on the radio to know that I wanted nothing to do with Genesis from then on.

xps I think "Misunderstanding" also has some of Led Zeppelin's "Fool In the Rain" in its DNA, in that they're both shuffles with similar chord progressions and virtually identical lyrical themes

I'm not really a fan of Duke or Abacab, but when I was going through the catalog this past week, I was pretty sure I could cobble together my favorite parts from both and come up with an LP I'd kind of like.

funny, duke is the only genesis album i've really had time for

"Misunderstanding" sounds a lot more like "Hot Fun in the Summertime" than that Toto sound.

jeez, this hadn't occurred to me. OTM. I'd say, "'Hot Fun...' as played by Toto."

A line in that review makes me wonder... were there any established bands who became "more prog" in the late 70s? Rush, I suppose, maybe The Enid? Any others?

Or even bands who stayed "just as prog" as they were before?

not quite "late 70s" but Todd Rundgren's prog phase was from 1973-1977 which is pretty late to jump off the deep end

True, but as soon as late 1977, Oops Wrong Planet made a big shift to AOR.

yes made "awaken" in 1977, that's pretty prime prog. tho sure, the rest of the going for the one album was not quite as "progressive"

Phil has cited Beach Boys' Sail On Sailor as an influence on Misunderstanding, Hold The Line way more bombastic and generally unchill than either

xxp yeah and Hermit of Mink Hollow was perhaps a bigger shift

for context this is what was happening in 1978 so I don't blame everyone for getting out

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bg_f-oSfYJ4/VbUlJQA2fII/AAAAAAAAObk/sfNnzcB7XdU/s1600/ELP%2BCRAIG%2BPlayboy.jpg

You would just figure, for all of the fans who complained about these groups "selling out" etc., that there would have been a market share for at least one of these groups to "hold the line" and stay loyal to the progressive cause. I guess a lot of one's point of view depends on whether you think 80s King Crimson "went commercial" or "stayed progressive".

there would have been a market share for at least one of these groups to "hold the line" and stay loyal to the progressive cause

prog isn't always on time

I guess the first 70s act to "regress to progressive" was Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe in 1989, giving audiences the multipart suites and show-off playing they had been waiting for for more than a decade.

Rush definitely, Hemispheres (78) is the apex of their prog tendencies

but then start retooling (inspired by the Police, Talking Heads, etc)

Selling Out Fans by the Pound

the tracklisting on the AWBH album makes it seem way more progressive than it actually is

it is kind of surprising that none of these bands tried a comeback in the mid-80s when Marillion was hitting it big. I guess most of them were broken up or just not getting along.

Mid-80s? Yes had a pop comeback, Floyd had vanished up Waters' arse, Genesis were making $$$, Tull were pootling along towards dad-rock, ELP tried and failed with the ELPowell album.

No-one else much was big enough to survive punk/new wave, other than soft proggers like Camel or BJH who also headed dad-rockwards.

There was The Enid but they were more like a creepozoid religious cult by then.

i guess if we're counting floyd, animals was possibly their proggiest effort and that was '77.

There's the popular conception of prog musicians as "dinosaurs" by the time punk hit, although many were not much older than 30 (and Genesis were all younger than that). But I wonder to what extent the energy of youth fed into progressive rock in its golden era. As they aged, it was just easier to play triads on a synth pad than to try and write a concerto with every song, especially when the synth triads get you an ovation from the crowd.

It's not well regarded now but Momentary Lapse of Reason by Pink Floyd was really huge (4X platinum in the U.S.)was huge for kids, "Learning to Fly" and that music video were huge and definitely got a newer generation of fans.

Pink Floyd in 1987 was my first concert, and that album has a lot of progressive trappings like instrumentals and extended running times, but I said elsewhere that "Sorrow" is "Heartbeat" by Don Johnson dragged out for eight minutes.

Lately when I've listened to Duke it reminds me a lot of Gloss Drop-era Battles

It's not well regarded now but Momentary Lapse of Reason by Pink Floyd was really huge (4X platinum in the U.S.)was huge for kids, "Learning to Fly" and that music video were huge and definitely got a newer generation of fans.

The only time I ever saw Floyd was on this tour.

I luv them

Been listening to this today, great to hear them in a small-ish room with a very happy, singalong crowd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmXwxXZtIN8

still wonder what this album's reputation would've been had they kept the Duke suite intact. might've been seen as a modern way of doing a prog epic. album would've made more sense too though "Misunderstanding" just don't fit regardless, it feels like a bonus track from a different session. oh well killer album and as mentioned upthread they really were the only ones keeping the prog flame alive in 1980. and Turn it On Again is legitimately one of the coolest pop songs ever. you can't play it!! ever see a band attempt to work it out? even when you figure it out your brain just can't play that way without a ton of practice (I assume? tried both the drums and the bass keyboard part and needed total focus to even get it right once) Tony Banks, baby

A friend of mine, who is in his late-'50s, was telling me about perusing the record bins as a kid and coming across all these albums by Genesis, which all seemed so mysterious and magical to him, with their inscrutable album covers and whatnot. And then one day he's listening to the radio and hears "Misunderstanding," and the DJ comes on to say it's Genesis, and it reverse blew his mind. This is Genesis?

yea it's my least favorite part of the record and def should've been punted for Face Value. speaking of wasn't In The Air Tonight originally meant to be on this album? god, imagine that.

something I've noticed is how damn long every single one of Genesis's LPs were from Foxtrot -> Duke. even the doubles like The Lamb and Seconds Out. every LP is over 50 minutes long. this one is 55! you gotta crank up the bass hard!

I can't deny that Misunderstanding doesn't fit on this record, but I also can't deny that I love Misunderstanding, the first Genesis song I knew -- and it does fit, for me, into the band's work as a whole.

Phil pitched "In the Air Tonight" to the band (just like Mike Campbell pitched "Boys of Summer" to Tom Petty) and the band passed.

Phil is (rightly) defensive about his reputation for softening Genesis. For example, Mike Rutherford wrote the bulk of "Follow You, Follow Me," their first hit, and later the bulk of stuff like "Taking It All Too Hard" and "Throwing It All Away," two songs that people probably think Collins had a big hand in writing. (Fwiw, he also wrote the lyrics for "Illegal Alien.")

I like "Misunderstanding" too, even if though I don't count it among their best stuff - beyond Duke, Abacab was the last time I kind of enjoyed their pop songs before they really went bland.

I've never thought Misunderstanding doesn't fit and tbh I'm not sure what you're getting at. It feels distinctly of that period of Genesis in pretty much every regard and (this will sound clunky but) it's a textural and compositional fit for Duke imo (that said, it also reminds me of McCartney a bit - not in sound so much but just as a song).

Was listening to And Then There Were Three the other day and thought how unforgivably insipid Follow is. And I *love* their pop ballads, generally - Throwing It All Away is a genuine highlight of Invisible Touch for me - but there's something so grey and dull about it. It's no Afterglow, for sure.

IME 'Turn It On Again' is not so difficult to play, frogbs. My mates and I did a little remote version during lockdown and it was a lot of fun working it out.

Once you get into the odd signature groove, it's pretty straightforward, though I can imagine just one person deviating a bit too much throwing it off.

I don't mind "Misunderstanding" at all, and I like "Follow You," too, mawkish though it may be. Typically passive aggressive-y quote from Banks on wiki:

It was our only truly group-written number. Mike played the riff, then I started playing a chord sequence and melody line on it, which Phil then centralized around. It worked so well as a very simple thing; it was enough as it stood. I'd just written a simple love lyric for "Many Too Many", and I think Mike was keen to try the same thing. Maybe "Follow You Follow Me" was almost too banal, but I got used to it. I think we find it much easier to write long stories than simple love songs.