Defenestrate Them All: Canadian Politics 2021

One more thing: the panic around 'bonjour-hi' was utterly moronic and, I think, yet another way of winning non-Montrealers' hearts, as though it were necessary to begin with.

the bonjour-hi thing really bummed me out (I used to mention the phrase to Americans as an example of how Montreal could be a welcoming and courteous place), but then we got the gift of "bonjour-ho" so maybe it's a wash?

It was adopted by a 112-0 margin.

guess they struck a nerve, lol

Alas, papa Legault – whose vocabulary is about as limited as Trump's btw – is incapable of complex discourse. The fact that he's bound to walk the next election is nightmarish and I can only take comfort in knowing that the majority of Montrealers didn't vote for this shit.

Ontario obviously blows but man I really do not miss trying to figure out if it's even possible to ever unfuck QC politics

Francophones are conditioned to expect French bashing from anglophones so it's hard to take such criticism seriously even when it is justified – it's a Boy Who Cried Wolf-type scenario. The general lack of mea culpas on English Canada's part regarding Quebec's schizophrenic condition is also a problem. It seems to me that anglophones tend to assume that francophones were equal partners throughout the entirety of Canada's history whereas ime francophones tend to overstate the ills that they suffered (Pierre Vallières's famous 1968 essay, whose title I'll let you google, is a perfect encapsulation of this). From my perspective as an allophone, the truth is somewhere in the middle…

(xp)

Basically the Hundred Years' War never ended and expanded to the so-called New World is what I'm saying.

On that note, also in today's news: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/liberals-proposed-language-reforms-seek-equality-of-english-and-french-in-canada

no way is that lady 42 years old

Good. Overhauling immersion teaching methods would probably help as well. Everyone I know who's ever tried it is still unable to hold a basic conversation in French although most of that boils down to working in a 100% anglophone setting and having a 100% anglophone partner who also works in a 100% anglophone setting. The classic Montreal rule also applies: 'when nine bilinguals work with one monolingual anglophone, English prevails ten times out of ten'. No one would ever dare do this in France, and you know what? Anglophones who've lived in Paris for a while usually emerge with decent French skills, and they're all the happier for it. Win-win!

*emerge from it

(I can hold a conversation in French.)

You most certainly can! I forgot you'd done French immersion, but then again, you've gone much further than that, which makes a huge difference.

Re: Legault and 'free speech' on campuses. In France, the minister of higher ed has recently requested an inquiry into the supposed 'islamo-gauchisme' – the French equivalent of 'postmodern marxism' – that is 'plaguing' French universities, so the CAQ's response is tepid stuff in comparison. Polls show that 6/10 French people believe this to be a very real problem. 🤦

At one point Pom I’m going to ask what else the ROC can do to help Quebec. The federal government re-wrote the consitution and Levesque wanted to use it as bargaining tool, they had not one but two referendums on the souveraineté question (thats a lot even per western standards), Quebec has control over parts of immigration, most of education and most of culture, civil law needs to be represented on the supreme court, so does the french language, etc etc.

The same way I am not going to care the slightest if a Thai immigrant doesn’t care about Quebec culture that has just ignored him/her for many generations, I fail to see how anglo-canadians would in the slightest be interested in a culture in which Quebec made it a sacrament to ignore them at best, hate them at worst.

I wish the maritimes, or FNIM, or heck even ~~poor people~~ had even a quarter of Quebec’s attention and power over canadian affairs (I write this passing Sir Georges-Etienne Cartier statue).

But mostlg I am just so tired of people in Quebec using their history to shield themselves against accusations of racism. By any historical or geographical metric, Quebec has had it pretty good.

I'm at the point where I actually think sovereignty would be a good thing, as it would clarify matters. No sense in staying together for the kids if you hate each other's guts. Except, of course, the divorce never came to fruition, as you rightly point out, and so the marital farce continues. Quebec brought this on itself, yes – twice.

I am just so tired of people in Quebec using their history to shield themselves against accusations of racism

100% with you on this.

Imagine massively contributing to one of the largest colonial experiments in history and claiming to be a victim of colonialism, and using that to silence actual victims of colonialism.

That's a bit simplistic, don't you think?

I think that’s the M.O of conservatism in Quebec. I don’t think it represents the entire Quebec population/culture, thank god, we have an incredible amount of open minded people here.

French Canadians did have a rough time of it for two centuries, and that deserves to be underscored (see, for instance, the openly racist Durham Report followed by the Act of Union 1840 and the oppression of francophone proles at the hands of capitalist anglophone elites up until the 1970s, which occurred along ethnic and religious lines, not to mention the legacy of 'speak white'). Does this compare to the suffering endured by other, primarily visible minorities in this country? Absolutely not, no. But I don't think we can pretend it never happened, which is the most common anglophone stance ime.

The way history is exploited by Quebec conservatives is disgusting, however, and does greatly undermine the credibility of such arguments. It doesn't have to be like this, though, which is probably a naïve belief on my part.

For me, French immersion was effective in making French feel like a burden and a requirement, and not very effective in conveying the joy of speaking a second language. When French is the language of school, you kind of want to get away from it as much as possible. I had to find my own motivation later in life to (re)learn the French I know.

That's also something that, perhaps understandably, doesn't seem to enter into language policy. From the way that language policies are framed, enforced, and fought over, you wouldn't necessarily recognize that languages are amazing and we should want to be multilingual for its own sake.

yeah I think that concept is really hard for children to understand, which is unfortunate because they are at the best age to pick up a second language

I hear you on that.

As a freshly arrived immigrant kid, picking up French was easy because both my parents already spoke it and my mother tongue is a Romance language. I had no linguistic preference up until my teens, at which point English struck me as so much cooler in every way, if only because it felt transgressive in a chiefly francophone context. The music I listened to, the films and TV shows I watched, the video games I played, the awesome shit I saw on the internet were all in (mostly American) English and, increasingly, my friends were anglophones as well. The one exception was reading and writing, which I found more pleasant in French.

After high school, I decided to go to an anglophone college, and I continued down that path for a good while, since I also opted for an anglophone university. Halfway through my BA, however, I began taking classes in French again because I felt like something was missing – anglophone perspectives had become a bit too monolithic in my worldview, incidentally crowding out Romanian as well. I moved to France for my MA, and that reconciled me with francophone culture for good, since it forced me to live and think entirely in French, with almost no exceptions. For me, at least (and this ties into what you were saying, jmm), French is a source of diversity, just as I value English and Romanian for providing me with equally different takes on the world, which aren't always reconcilable. I like being able to juggle between them, even though this has also been a source of alienation at times in that I often feel the need to defend whichever culture is being dissed by the other camp.

For me, French immersion was effective in making French feel like a burden and a requirement, and not very effective in conveying the joy of speaking a second language. When French is the language of school, you kind of want to get away from it as much as possible.

this was absolutely my experience going to an Acadian school for elementary!

If French isn't your mother tongue and both your parents aren't francophones and you have access to English, the latter will win out every time. Sometimes even when all the aforementioned conditions are met. We're all intuitively drawn to the idiom of privilege.

yup. having only one francophone parent did not suffice.

I don't have kids and probably never will but if it does happen some day, I'm fairly certain that they'd never learn Romanian even if I were to insist on it. If my wife were Romanian, I assume they'd pick up enough to understand it, but they wouldn't speak it. I myself probably wouldn't if I'd been born in Canada.

I went to French Immersion classes from Senior Kindergarten to Grade 3, and I have no idea how I managed it. I really don't have any memories of speaking it at that time.
I read and listen to French, but I'd have to do so much studying to express myself as precisely as I want to do, there's no way it would be worth it. I'm not even sure I express myself as lucidly in English as I intend.

...and English is my first language.

I'm at the point where I actually think sovereignty would be a good thing, as it would clarify matters. No sense in staying together for the kids if you hate each other's guts.

Let's not lose sight that the context for this discussion is a federal PM and Minister, themselves both French speakers from Quebec, announcing programs to promote the French language in Canada.

What do you think 'clarification ' would consist of in practice? Who do you think would benefit?

It’s not a rational stance, I’m just sick of hearing my parents fight.

More seriously, if you're curious about what a left-wing pro-sovereignist position looks like, check out section 11 of Québec Solidaire's program:

https://api-wp.quebecsolidaire.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/18-01958-qs2018_programme-politique_f.pdf

And tbc in the event of another referendum on Quebec's independence, merely thinking two seconds about the hardcore sovereignists I know and how much they loooove immigrants would be enough to push me towards 'non merci'.

To be fair to anyone who did immersion, french is freaking hard.

Learning a foreign language is hard, period, but French is among the easier ones, especially for native English speakers:

https://effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty/

On the other hand, I don't know how many times I've heard english speakers say they don't want to sound stupid when they speak french because they haven't mastered it yet and part of it is just privilege, because that's how most of the world's feels when they switch to english.

otm

I understand that about non-English speakers and empathize.

I don't think it's fair to go to a non-anglophone country and expect them to speak English.

French Canadians did have a rough time of it for two centuries, and that deserves to be underscored (see, for instance, the openly racist Durham Report followed by the Act of Union 1840 and the oppression of francophone proles at the hands of capitalist anglophone elites up until the 1970s, which occurred along ethnic and religious lines, not to mention the legacy of 'speak white'). Does this compare to the suffering endured by other, primarily visible minorities in this country? Absolutely not, no. But I don't think we can pretend it never happened, which is the most common anglophone stance ime.

― pomenitul, Friday, February 19, 2021 11:28 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Everyone had a rough time. Francophones especially so because they abdicated all power to the catholic clergy.

That was a self-own, no doubt about it. The rest tho? Nah.

We’ll debate this in Franglais over a sour beer when the time comes.

I don't think it's fair to go to a non-anglophone country and expect them to speak English.

― Halfway there but for you, Friday, February 19, 2021 4:24 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I can make some mental exceptions! I don't know how many english speakers are in Montreal for a limited period of time, but it must be a substantial amount. It is okay if someone is coming to Montreal for work purposes for two years and doesn't end up an expert of Gabrielle Roy's literature, same for students, who end up doing part time jobs and screamed at because they aren't fluent, which is ridiculous and not at all inviting imo.

I'm mostly on your side but

I don't know how many times I've heard english speakers say they don't want to sound stupid when they speak french because they haven't mastered it yet and part of it is just privilege, because that's how most of the world's feels when they switch to english.

vs

students, who end up doing part time jobs and screamed at because they aren't fluent,

Fwiw no monolingual anglo I know has ever gotten shit for not speaking French, except, like, once, ages ago. For a while I only spoke English because such was my wont and nobody took issue with it anywhere. That said, these things do happen, and were certainly common in the past, but they tend to be blown out of proportion imo. If anything, I’ve witnessed French people getting roasted over their accent more often.

But isn't that the issue? You don't get shit for speaking English but you might get shit (or, more likely, just get people switching to English with an eyeroll) if you speak French badly.

People love it when anglos try to speak French. They might not have the rest of the conversation in French, which is indeed a problem, but it’s always appreciated. You get corrected for minor mistakes in France, not here.

Usually the anglo learner will have to insist on continuing in French before people stop responding in English.

I’m totally guilty of this myself btw. As soon as I detect a whiff of English I switch to it straight away because I want to put my conversation partner at ease.