2021 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees POLL

If Carole King's already in as a writer, there's no reason to vote her in as a performer except that everybody now living's mom owned a copy of Tapestry.

I'll vote for Devo, Iron Maiden (best live act in metal), Fela, LL Cool J, and Tina Turner. Fuck the New York Dolls and Todd Rundgren forever.

everybody now living's gay uncle, too

My mom never actually owned a copy of Tapestry, but when I was a little kid she used to listen to a radio station with a morning DJ named "the Mellow Mother," so I'm pretty sure I've heard the whole album.

i think i've posted enough bullshit on ilm that i deserve to vote in this

Are we voting for who we like best, who is most likely to get in, or who we feel is most deserving of admission?

Would say 1 > 3 > 2 out of those options

The Foo Fighters are almost certain to get in but I'm sure not voting for them.

burn this shit down. abominable institution

(Chic has had 11 fruitless tries, and haven't been nominated since 2017.)

Whoa, I could have sworn they got in at some point in the last few years but I guess not.

Most deserving, I'd say Carole King, but as a writer/performer, not just as a performer. (They should have just put her in for both the first time.)

For whose music means the most to me, it'd be Dionne Warwick, the New York Dolls, and Todd Rundgren, with the last two concentrated in a very tiny window of two or three years.

Foo Fighters are the Jack Morris of this HoF if they get in

you can search inductees here for reference

https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/a-z

In the end, it had to be Iron Maiden.

at least half of these are great but are we voting for the best or the most appropriate inductee (which may be the same or not but I have no idea how to judge- wtf does rock and roll mean?)

my fake ballot (idk what the limit is)
Jay
Fela
Rage
Devo
Dolls
Bush

iron maiden, judas priest, thin lizzy, etc. should have been inducted years ago

The limit is five (I was a voter the last few years; I expect to get a ballot this year).

the funny thing to me is non-metal people probably view Iron Maiden as derisively as Night Ranger. I used to tell people I was going to see Iron Maiden and they'd either make Bill and Ted joekz or go "omg Iron Maiden, they're still around? I remember them", like it was me going to Pete's Tractor Pull with 5 other fans to see "The Iron Maiden experience featuring Bruce D".

I don't think a lot of layfolk realize the vitality they still have in 2021 (which is awesome and amazing). i was kind of amazed a few years ago when I saw them at Amalie Arena and the 20,000+ seat arena was pretty much FULL. even Priest can't do those numbers these days (they do festivals and House of Blues-sized venues), and Slayer had a lot of empties when I saw them at their last tour (which was an arena tour).

xpost when u wrote Bush I thought you meant Gavin Rossdale jfc

Jack Morris is a good analogy (the Foo Fighters: winningest band of the '90s), except they don't even have a Game 7 on their resume. Harold Baines, maybe, except I like Harold Baines. I don't know if there's such a blatant long-term mediocrity that works as an analogy.

(xxpost my previous post was US centric so keep that in mind, but the RR HOF is US centric so *shrug*)

Todd Rundgren should be in as a producer alone, if he isn't already, both for his solo stuff but also for a ton of hit or influential stuff: Badfinger ("Baby Blue"!), the Band, New York Dolls, Meat Loaf, Psychedelic Furs, XTC, Patti Smith ("Dancing Barefoot"!), etc.

This piece by SF writer John Scalzi about seeing Iron Maiden live in 2019 captures their appeal better than anything I've ever read. Metal journalists are too close to the screen to see clearly, and as Neanderthal says, non-metal writers don't give a fuck. But Maiden are incredible live. Too bad there are no concerts anymore...

foo fighters won't win this poll but if they get in i won't be surprised. if they get in and turner and/or warwick don't I'll be violently angry

xpost when u wrote Bush I thought you meant Gavin Rossdale jfc

― he said that you son of a bitch (Neanderthal), Wednesday, February 10, 2021 9:57 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i walk from my machine
to make a deal with god

No one else voting for Fela?

Jack Morris is a good analogy (the Foo Fighters: winningest band of the '90s), except they don't even have a Game 7 on their resume. Harold Baines, maybe, except I like Harold Baines. I don't know if there's such a blatant long-term mediocrity that works as an analogy.

― clemenza, Wednesday, February 10, 2021 9:57 AM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

more like yadier molina, in that their stats don't measure up but they've been around for ever and have position-specific intangibles (for yadi, pitch framing and catcher defense, for foo fighters, dave grohl being both guy that everyone loves and a walking symbol for "rock lives on after kurt cobain")

No one else voting for Fela?

I will. I saw him live in '89; it was amazing. I'm pretty sure he played no more than four songs in two hours, and between the band and the female dancers, it seemed like there were 50 people onstage.

I would but Chaka forever.

tapestry was released 50 years ago today, so points for symmetry

i'm not gonna hate on any of these acts, but new york dolls/go-go's/ratm didn't really put out that much music. and as jaymc pointed out elsewhere, where are pj harvey/björk/tori?

Surprised the New York Dolls aren't in...well, not that surprised, since the MC5 also aren't in. But the Dolls and Fela easily, along with Chaka, Tina Turner, Carole King, and Dionne Warwick.

They should have just started with everybody in, and then every year they vote someone out.

I like that! This year's ballot: Bo Donaldson & the Heywoods, Matt Bianco, Rupert Holmes, Doctor & the Medics, the Foo Fighters.

Ratt gets snubbed again

The day Björk gets nominated for the R&R Hall of Fame, I'll start listening to Iron Maiden.

In 2018, Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden criticized the Hall of Fame by calling it "an utter and complete load of bollocks ... run by a bunch of sanctimonious bloody Americans who wouldn’t know rock 'n' roll if it hit them in the face."[69] Dickinson has also expressed an overall distaste for the Hall of Fame entity, arguing that "if you put [music] in a museum, then it's dead."

Wonder how he feels now.

Putting on Number of the Beast. What a dazzlingly tight band.

I also am incredulous that Tori Amos wasn't admitted to the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame in her first five years of eligibility btw.

But Maiden are incredible live.

no kidding. an Iron Maiden concert feels like a HOLIDAY to me when I have tickets. I usually take the next day off (well that's due to getting drunk but).

the only one I didn't enjoy was the first one, because I road a Greyhound to get there, didn't sleep the night before, was sunburnt and heat-exhausted and about to pass out before it started.

The Flight 666 documentary was eye-opening, especially for the amazing crowds they get in South and Central America.

Go-Gos shouldn't be in if the Bangles ain't in

I voted based on which one I would keep if I could only keep one in my collection: Fela.

"Hallowed Be Thy Name" is so beautiful and flows so well.

Kathy Valentine says she's gonna give a vote to Devo

Otoh:

Retweeting in honor of Fela Kuti’s inclusion in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame nominees. https://t.co/h5eDq2v28x

— Ted Gioia (@tedgioia) February 10, 2021

I voted based on which one I would keep if I could only keep one in my collection: Fela.

tbf if I was voting and using this reasoning, I would land on Fela, too. Wouldn't think twice.

Conceding the American bias of this thing, I'd personally put Bananarama on a plane with the Go-Gos and the Bangles. I like Bananarama better than the other two, but I'm not sure any of really warrant induction.

Go-Go's: First All-Female Rock band to Hit #1; wrote and played all their own material; quality catalogue.

xpost

A vocal trio assembled by their producer (a perfectly viable artistic method, ftr) vs. two self-assembled bands. Show your work.

I don't really give points for that stuff, to be honest. Tom Parker project Elvis Presley didn't write his own material, did he? Bananarama fits very neatly into the history of girl groups.

The comparison surprised me too. Also, the Bangles rocked. xp

Real dumb and shitty

They should retroactively induct everyone dropped in that pile:

As it stands: Chic, Gil-Scott Heron, LL Cool J, Kraftwerk and Judas Priest

Just quietly move them into the regular class and keep it moving

silver medal ghettos for black music and queer music... They should retroactively induct everyone dropped in that pile

there is indeed a ghetto feel to those awards, but for what it's worth they all *have* been inducted. if i'm not mistaken, their plaques on the hall of fame walls look exactly like everyone else's plaque on the hall of fame walls. the plaques don't say "musical excellence" or "early influence" or "actually voted in" or anything like that, and the hall itself doesn't make any such distinctions anywhere inside the actual museum.

Big Black doesn't belong in the Hall, but Steve Albini definitely does.

I might delete the "definitely," but I was thinking this too, that he'd make more sense on his own.

I'm going to start working up a Ken Keltner test for prospective inductees. That was something baseball writer Bill James came up with for prospective Baseball HOF candidates: 15 questions that could be used as general guidelines for induction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keltner_list

Sample question: "Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?"

That's a pretty high bar for pop music--if you were ever regarded as the most important artist around, even for five minutes, you're probably an obvious yes--so you'd need different questions.

(No, I'm not really going to work on this.)

if you were ever regarded as the most important artist around, even for five minutes, you're probably an obvious yes

This raises the Terence Trent D'Arby conundrum.

Re: Leonard Cohen: of course there's a lot of sexist discrimination against female acts, but he probably gets in for being dark and edgy, like a mellower Jim Morrison. Can you imagine Kurt Cobain namechecking Carly Simon in song? And even at his most becalmed or slick, he was never really "soft rock" like her or James Taylor.

I was ruminating that in the first years of the Hall, it must have seemed so simple to the nominating committee. Everyone knew what "Rock and Roll" was, everyone knew who had been great at it, and nobody was advocating for Louis Armstrong, Edith Piaf, Jacques Brel, Nino Rota, Ravi Shankar or Glenn Gould.

Mick Jagger is on "You're So Vain"! Idk what point we're arguing, though, since Simon was inducted. I am willing to make an argument against Leonard Cohen if the demand is there for it.

TTD is an interesting counter...I was pretty attentive to everything that was going on back then, so I remember his "moment" pretty well. He definitely got a lot of attention, but I'm not sure if he was ever given the full Dylan/Rolling Stones/Clash treatment. My recollection is that, when his LP came out, Prince was pretty solidly viewed as the Most Important Artist Around, with maybe some support for the Talking Heads (not from me!), and Public Enemy coming up quickly.

Sign 'o' the Times came out March '87, and was not as universally adored then as it is now - Rolling Stone's review basically called it a grab-bag. TTD's debut came out in July, and he went to #1 with "Wishing Well" when Prince could only get to #2 with "U Got the Look"; he was definitely the "new kid in town" for five minutes at least.

I was ruminating that in the first years of the Hall, it must have seemed so simple to the nominating committee.

I like to imagine Jann Wenner in 1986 with a dreamy look in his eyes, thinking to himself "one day Lionel Richie and Pat Benatar will be in here".

I don’t know a ton about Leonard Cohen, but I don’t really get why there would be any controversy about his eligibility (is it because he doesn’t shred on guitar?) Or is the idea that some folks were objecting to Carly Simon, and so – “why don’t they object to Cohen too”?

Posting on the run there...Having thought about it, I think "Most Important Artist" was a somewhat crowded field in the summer of '87. Besides the people I mentioned--Prince (Christgau gave Sign 'o' the Times an A+--"Merely the most gifted pop musician of his generation"--and it dominated Pazz & Jop, which carried at least as much weight as RS's often shortsighted reviews), Talking Heads, and Public Enemy (first album only--I maybe jumped the gun by a few months there)--there was also Springsteen (still), Michael Jackson (still), Madonna, U2 (the tree album), R.E.M., Run D.M.C. and/or the Beastie Boys, Husker Du, and maybe others. I just don't remember TTD being accorded the same treatment on the basis of one LP. "New Kid in Town," yes, but to me, not the same thing.

I'm not objecting to Cohen being in there, just the idea that he (or James Taylor, or Tom Waits) are any more "rock and roll" than Carly Simon (or Madonna, or the Supremes).

From a quick Google, I can find evidence of one Twitter rando mocking Simon's inclusion and a bunch of classic rock sites with articles listing five or ten reasons why she should have been included.

(is it because he doesn’t shred on guitar?)

A good reason btw; shitty Casio keyboards and tuneless mumbling also disqualifying factors

Maybe the perception of her is a lot different than I think it is, I don't know. Could also be some confirmation bias in that--people who've been advocating for her are much more likely to post something than someone who doesn't think she should be in. (Who's going to post a "10 Reasons Why Carly Simon Shouldn't be in the HOF" piece?)

Anyway, I like this comment from one of those advocacy pieces: "I bet she thinks the Hall of Fame is about her."

Maybe Classic Rock Sites like her, but I really don't ever remember hearing anything by her on Q-107 during its heyday.

I was ruminating that in the first years of the Hall, it must have seemed so simple to the nominating committee. Everyone knew what "Rock and Roll" was, everyone knew who had been great at it, and nobody was advocating for Louis Armstrong, Edith Piaf, Jacques Brel, Nino Rota, Ravi Shankar or Glenn Gould.

― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, May 7, 2022 9:57 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think more to the point, no one was saying, "Hey, come on, Pat Boone sold a ton of records and had a tv show! And Neil Sedaka wrote some huge hits!" I mean, yeah, while nominations may have seemed simple in the '80s and early '90s, Charley Patton didn't get in until last year, and Link Wray still isn't in.

(And Louis Armstrong was inducted in 1990.)

One thing that gets at what I'm talking about is the lead paragraph of Jon Pareles' piece on Madonna's induction:

Leave it to Madonna to make the right gesture. For her induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, she didn’t worry about whether her career as a pop hitmaker, image maker, sex symbol and provocateuse qualified her as a important figure in any narrowly defined genre of rock ’n’ roll.

Now, that was written in 2008. Maybe general perceptions have changed drastically since then, to the point that Carly Simon is now unquestionably viewed as a rock and roll artist.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/arts/music/11fame.html#:~:text=Leave%20it%20to%20Madonna%20to,of%20rock%20%27n%27%20roll.

Fwiw, from a similar Google search, here are some quotes from a few Leonard Cohen fans at https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1524 from five years before Cohen's induction, about the suggestion that he should be in:

When I think of Rock 'n' Roll, I don't think of Leonard. When I think of Leonard, I don't think of Rock 'n' Roll.

I agree, 'Rock 'n' Roll' just ain't it. True originals cannot be categorized, pidgeon-holed or labeled. Look at Johnny Cash; he crossed Country, Rock, and finally "Alternative". Maybe 'Alternative' is as close as you can get to a 'class' for LC. The 'classiest' of all.

As far as Leonard being inducted into the Rock n’ Roll Hall of Fame is concerned. I don’t think he is the kind of artiste who would ever be bothered by it, not even an iota. It may be something that would mean more to some of his *fans*.

Personally I doubt it if Leonard will ever be inducted into the hall of fame. For the simple reason that Americans by and large want sunny songs, celebrating the joy of life, happy stuff ... There is little place, if any, in American culture for the plaintive no matter how it is expressed. For this reason Leonard has never been mainstream in America. In fact for this reason “Various Positions” was never even released in the U.S. Contrarily, Leonard has always been popular in Europe because they embrace the reality of emotions, no matter what colour it comes in. Anyhow, my take on Leonard being inducted into the hall of fame is that it would be like putting the sun on display in MOMA, or Whitney or a suchlike place.

My sense is that it matters little even if Leonard was inducted into the RnRHofF, if his music and poetic vision are not understood and truly appreciated.

Cohen himself described his induction as "an unlikely occasion" and said "It is not a distinction that I coveted or even dared dream about."

The Guardian recalled Jon Landau's 1970 comment "I have seen the future of rock'n'roll, and he is not Leonard Cohen" when reporting his induction

Anything from after he was inducted? Personally, I've never come across anyone questioning him or Tom Waits in the way they questioned Madonna.

Haha I went looking for what controversy there was about Madonna and found this doozy:

“Why am I not in the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame? That has a lot to do with the fact that you can’t always explain why people are rotten. Why do some people violate other people and commit vicious crimes and lie?” Nugent told KNAC.

“Why isn’t a band like Triumph in there, but Grandmaster Flash is?! That’s just dishonest,” he said. “Why are Patti Smith, ABBA and Madonna in the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame, but not STYX?! Are you kidding me?! You can only explain that is that the people who made those decisions are just plain rotten people. The Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame should genuflect to Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Howlin’ Wolf, Muddy Waters, the Motown Funk Brothers. Are you kidding me?! How dare you put Grandmaster Flash, ABBA and Madonna in that?!”

I feel like I have to circle back to my original point: that the is/isn't rock and roll distinction (which is pretty arbitrary to begin with) has fallen disproportionately on females, and that it serves as a good explanation for why Dionne Warwick has not been inducted. Unless it's her commercials for the Psychic Friends Network keeping her out, I'm having a hard time coming up with anything else. (I know--race. I think with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, at least with regards to earlier artists--'70 and before? pre-disco?--race is less of a factor. I'm not saying it's absent, it never is, but 6 of the original 11 inductees were African-American. As they should have been.)

Whenever I want to point the finger at lunkheadedness, I should always begin by googling Ted Nugent.

Styx? Jesus, if you have to ask...

I didn't realize there was so much debate as to whether to consider any of these people as rock n' roll. It's probably because my gateway into rock history was through books that didn't make the distinctions I'm hearing some people making now. Like hip-hop, Madonna, Carly Simon, Cohen and I'll even add a lot of country artists were all in the same books devoted to rock, and in retrospect lumped in as being different parts of the same "rock" culture.

I would have thought the controversy would be about the quality of their work. I thought Cohen had skeptics since the beginning, but they seemed to warm to him when he made that magnificent return in the late '00s. I always thought he was a great songwriter and loved his voice from all stages of his career, it was just his records that seemed hit-or-miss. The common knock was that they were overproduced, but to me he just seemed like a very erratic recording artist - his strengths didn't extend to arranging or recording, he was mostly about writing and performing.

I think it was very much a point of contention when Madonna went in. (Why she enlisted Iggy Pop to perform her song; benefitted both of them.) As some of the stuff Sund4r has dug up on Carly Simon, maybe that's changing.

xp I also thought about Tom Waits along the same lines (i.e., “if you’re gonna question Cohen”…)

Some of those observations doubting why Cohen would be inducted are very arguable; and of course he was inducted anyway

Like hip-hop, Madonna, Carly Simon, Cohen and I'll even add a lot of country artists were all in the same books devoted to rock, and in retrospect lumped in as being different parts of the same "rock" culture.

Yeah, it just seems so natural that a wide variety of “rock era” stuff has always been considered part of the broader rock ‘n’ roll diaspora – covered by Rolling Stone, history books, etc. I never would’ve thought to question any of it either

Anything from after he was inducted? Personally, I've never come across anyone questioning him or Tom Waits in the way they questioned Madonna.

I did, a few posts up! Don't tell my wife.

Dude bangs a few trashcan lids together and puts on an “I’m so interesting” fedora, that’s rock ‘n’ roll? ;)

I was ruminating that in the first years of the Hall, it must have seemed so simple to the nominating committee. Everyone knew what "Rock and Roll" was, everyone knew who had been great at it, and nobody was advocating for Louis Armstrong, Edith Piaf, Jacques Brel, Nino Rota, Ravi Shankar or Glenn Gould.

except that louis armstrong did get in in the first years! along with jimmie rodgers, jimmy yancey, hank williams, louis jordan, lead belly, woody guthrie, les paul, bessie smith, the ink spots and charlie christian. is that a list that "anyone who knew what rock and roll was" would agree was, in fact, rock and roll?

(also, i find myself ruminating right now on the fact that ricky nelson was inducted in year two, along with aretha franklin, bo diddley, marvin gaye, smokey robinson and roy orbison. was there a time when ricky nelson was really considered in that league? is he considered in that league now?)

Marcus included Legendary Masters in his Stranded discography, but I agree, he does stick out. Bill Haley does too, and I'd even extend that to Eddie Cochran.

Looking at that list of "early influence" inductions, it makes sense why no one would object at the time. Those inductions involved music created before rock n' roll crystalized into something everyone would recognize. As a result, "early influences" is a lot more defined - there's no question it refers to important work pre-dating that of the main inductees.

Ricky Nelson's work is at least a cut below what Chuck Berry et al from the first wave made to define rock n' roll, but his best work is still great. He still cut some really lame shit - specifically the type of harmless teen pop that was big before the Beatles came along - but he made sure to get the stuff he really liked on tape, and compilations like Legendary Masters generally do a great job focusing on that. He put together a great band (James Burton was still a little-known teenager to most and this was his most visible work), and guys like John Fogerty later cited those records as being a major influence and leaving a big impression before they tried making music themselves.

the Terence Trent D'Arby conundrum

^ my favorite Robert Ludlum novel btw

Anyway when we talk about producers and engineers, why not just keep going and include acousticians? The person who decided that the Record Plant in Sausalito should have tan shag carpet on the walls made a huge contribution to the sound of Rumours.

Why stop there; someone probably brought a tray of tea into Abbey Road at just the right time to perk up the Beatles.

(Lest I sound too flippant, I should say that the arts are collaborative by design, as they should be, and I've never thought of artists as being in competition with one another, so top-x lists and ranking and awards and halls of whatever have never appealed to me, but I understand that one can be mildly interested in the conversation while not endorsing the whole institution.)

Looking at that list of "early influence" inductions, it makes sense why no one would object at the time. Those inductions involved music created before rock n' roll crystalized into something everyone would recognize. As a result, "early influences" is a lot more defined - there's no question it refers to important work pre-dating that of the main inductees.

i completely agree. but inasmuch as it included figures like louis armstrong, charlie christian and hank williams, it also shows that jazz, country, folk and other branches of the american musical tree were built in to the dna of the rock hall of fame from the beginning, and any complaints that only people whose musical licenses include the word "rock" with a capital R should be considered for a place on its walls have always been, and continue to be, foolish.

I think I mentioned this earlier with Ornette Coleman, but during a big tribute concert in his honor (possibly the Brooklyn concert that was also his final public appearance - one of my BIGGEST regrets as I planned to go but had to skip it due to work), someone pointed out that many of the participants weren't usually known as jazz musicians - yet Coleman's influence on their work was very much apparent and they certainly belonged there. It brought up the argument that the most fruitful results of his innovations were now being found in experimental and avant-garde music more closely associated with rock rather than jazz. Who would've predicted that in 1962, a year after Free Jazz was released and with Coltrane's freer masterworks just around the corner? It's another reason why I don't like it when so much emphasis is put on categories because who knows how the music is going to evolve? (Again, "Voter Two"'s great defense of the Fela Kuti nomination speaks to this.)

Indeed, most of what I know about Coleman and "harmolodics" is via Royal Trux.