Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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(Maybe I'm being paranoid, da croupier, wouldn't be the first time. Just wondering what you're getting at by quoting that bit twice.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:30 (sixteen years ago) link

he's talking about ppl who contribute to the snap thread

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:37 (sixteen years ago) link

(Oh, thanks.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Thanks dabug, but honestly, this whole retro girl group thing bemuses me a little. I can enjoy it, sure, but none of them seem to do for me what 'Leader of the Pack' or the original stuff ever did, and I'm trying to figure out why - is it the songwriting, the new-indieish hues or the thinner sound, etc?

Anyway, while we're tipping, The Blow esp 'Hey Boy' are rather great. I'm seeing them support Electrelane tonight in Cambridge MA (oh yeah, I'm over here for the summer).

― Poptext, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Correcting myself (not that anyone was replying to me): "performers whose name goes on the tracks" is a wretched phrase. What I'm meaning is that I'm not hugely bothered as to who produces or writes songs in teenpop, or even who performs them, more in each new song as a gambit in a wider conversation with the market.

(So the airplay and sales figures should be the most interesting part of Teenpop 2007 for me, I suppose)

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

I dislike the sound a lot too (probably for similar reasons -- also because I believe there are modern girl groups, making music in similar models but with a bit more co-authorship, e.g. the Veronicas, who aren't getting their due). I was surprised to like this group. (I think I called the last thing like this I heard "fetishistic and sterile." Something for Singles Jukebox, don't remember who it was, Marit Bergman I think?)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

Tom, one thing I like about the teenpop thread is how it explores authorship...Frank trying to figure out "who I'm falling in love with" re: Ashlee, what I just said above about the girl group thing, etc.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

(Haha, this is starting to sound like an infomercial.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:44 (sixteen years ago) link

The Blow's great, although I bailed on them last night because I was exhausted. Are you seeing them in a small place? She's a great performer.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

I think it's great that it explores authorship - just the kind of thing an evangelical teenpop thread ought to be doing, and a way into some fascinating analysis. But it doesn't interest *me* that much as something to do - fundamentally I am VERY LAZY and tend not to research authorship. And I have a bad memory for names.

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Paradise in Boston? Not been to that venue yet, only got into town a couple fo weeks ago.

― Poptext, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:49 (sixteen years ago) link

so basically youre saying the rap threads arent good anymore because you dont post as much

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:55 (sixteen years ago) link

it's hard for other threads to be more like teenpop when teenpop requires that much more involvement for it to even exist.

uhh that sounds pointier than i meant it to, no offence

i'm kind of disillusioned with the vast majority of rap discussion anyway. reading xxl comments will do that to you

yeah see, snap thread's just more like the 2nd person watercooler for the obvious ubiqitous 9-5 work of rap listening. it's not like yr gonna see something new on there with 'omg omg wow' cos everyone's pretty much heard everything already. if it happens to come up then it'll get discussed but it's not the regulars who feel the need to start it. meanwhile the world keeps spinning.

the other thing a successful rolling thread (well, and whole board) requires is a sense of um, community. failing that, a koganesque moderator (whether he actually contributes or not, but he's still the reference point.) if youre not really bothered what ilm, or even just the particular thread people think anyway then what's the impetus. i know i can sympathize with that.

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:57 (sixteen years ago) link

Non-high impact doesn't = not emotionally resonant, though. See: Cassie, Paris Hilton, uh...Carole King?

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:57 (sixteen years ago) link

so basically youre saying the rap threads arent good anymore because you dont post as much

-- and what, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:55 PM

no, i'm saying i'm not gonna complain about the quality of the rap threads because i enjoy the in-jokey half-assed vibe they have these days. you're the one who brought it up.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Koganesque looms large over the teenpop thread (and maybe over this one too) but the guy himself isn't a requirement for anything (see: no actual Kogan on this thread)...he's interested in a mode of thought and analysis, and as long as this is thought and carried through (as lots of people on this thread, teenpop posters and non-, are doing) it doesn't really matter what you're talking about. He's a ref. point here, but he doesn't need to be; his way of digging into his own and other people's ideas does need to be. Sometimes people just need to be stirred or cajoled or shoved into discussion in the right ways.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah yeah yeah i guess im just jealous of all this intense speculation & analysis of the teenpop thread and rolling snap gets like a couple 5 word posts a week now

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:11 (sixteen years ago) link

Koganesque looms large over the teenpop thread (and maybe over this one too) but the guy himself isn't a requirement for anything (see: no actual Kogan on this thread)...he's interested in a mode of thought and analysis, and as long as this is thought and carried through (as lots of people on this thread, teenpop posters and non-, are doing) it doesn't really matter what you're talking about. He's a ref. point here, but he doesn't need to be; his way of digging into his own and other people's ideas does need to be. Sometimes people just need to be stirred or cajoled or shoved into discussion in the right ways.

this is how the scientologists speak of L. Ron

― Just got offed, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:12 (sixteen years ago) link

hahaha, i was totally gonna post YOU ARE ALL JUST JEALOUS! yesterday, but i knew everyone would just deny it. now the truth is setting everyone free.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:13 (sixteen years ago) link

frank is a total guru! he has a crazy brain. people are attracted to crazy brains. i know i am.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:14 (sixteen years ago) link

well combined with the fact that unlike everybody else i think teenpop is a really worthless unlistenable genre

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:14 (sixteen years ago) link

except that lillix joint and come clean

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Sometimes people just need to be stirred or cajoled or shoved into discussion in the right ways.

Ugh, this pedanticism bugs me.

― Tim Ellison, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Ethan, somewhere way upthread Chuck expressed some unhappiness with the snap thread.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:18 (sixteen years ago) link

Well, I don't think it was pedantic at all, having been stirred and cajoled into the discussion myself.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:22 (sixteen years ago) link

Non-high impact doesn't = not emotionally resonant, though. See: Cassie, Paris Hilton, uh...Carole King?

-- dabug, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:57 PM (30 minutes ago)

that's you saying paris hilton = emotionally resonant, isn't it? yikes.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:29 (sixteen years ago) link

And Frank needs to be stirred and cajoled into conversation, too! And the people on threads who think the music is being insufficiently analyzed or discussed have it in their power to change the way they talk about it, or evangelize/market it even.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Frank has gone on to great lengths about this need for people to be PUSHED and CAJOLED and MADE TO THINK and how he's the guy to do it!

― Tim Ellison, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:35 (sixteen years ago) link

He's right! Other posters not interested in teenpop are saying as much, I'm responding to them fairly directly, not just making broad generalizations.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:37 (sixteen years ago) link

And my point isn't that he's the guy to do it (though around here he often is), just that it needs to get done.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:38 (sixteen years ago) link

Well, maybe you can join him in preaching to people about how they need to broaden their intellectual scope, then. (x-post)

― Tim Ellison, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:39 (sixteen years ago) link

REPENT, TIM!

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:45 (sixteen years ago) link

frank can spark discussion REALLY easily on ilm. check any one of a hundred threads. same with mark s. same with other people. threads that were lame or dying brought back to life by a deft nabisco paragraph or four.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:46 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah that Frank quote is pretty good, no Ashlee-Dylan crazy juice in that post and I give him credit for dealing with the fact that "Hilary doesn't have a high-impact voice" and that some songs use it better than others, which is the kind of fairly obvious truth that sometimes folks like The Lex seem very stubborn not to acknowledge.

it's not "stubborn not to acknowledge" because it's not actually a fact - it's "active disagreement". i don't doubt there are songs on which hilary's voice doesn't work*, but it works really well on most of what i have heard. it's a lot like rachel stevens' or kylie minogue's voice in that she hits all the notes fine but it's kind of blank and cipherish on first listen; it doesn't go out of its way to stamp its personality on the song, but this is good because this a) allows the song to breathe and b) allows the listener to make the song theirs, it's a really good way into the song.

but then - like stevens and minogue - you start imagining other (better, stronger, more charismatic) singers singing those songs, and it just plain wouldn't work.

i will pay no heed to nrq's snarks here; for one, as far as i can tell he finds close to nothing emotionally resonant in any case; and for two he likes the STONE ROSES so really should quit talking shit about paris's voice which, yes, i find emotionally resonant.

I think it's great that it explores authorship - just the kind of thing an evangelical teenpop thread ought to be doing, and a way into some fascinating analysis.

this is a v interesting point - rationally i agree with tom, authorship should be irrelevant to teenpop; i mean there's evidence of this every day, when a previously-shit teenpop vehicle suddenly becomes awesome with some magical producer/songwriter beans (eg omarion). trying to unpack why performers like hilary duff, paris hilton and so on appeal as performers rather than vehicles is one of the things i find most fascinating about the genre, because what they bring isn't so immediately apparent, but in terms of how i find myself responding to their work, it's undeniable that they do bring it.

i'm surprised alex is disappointed by the r&b thread, i think it's the perfect midpoint between the involved denseness and hard work of teenpop and the kind of dull laziness of snap (no offence like) and the endless lists of minimal.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:16 (sixteen years ago) link

no, not disappointed by the r&b thread at all, it's pretty consistently good, i was just saying that I'd be happier if it was as consistenly active as the teenpop thread.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:19 (sixteen years ago) link

its periods of dormancy allow me to keep my job though

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:22 (sixteen years ago) link

one of the reasons i dont post to rolling snap as much lately is cuz i only post at work where i cant usually listen to rap

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:55 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah same here, posting from work most of the time for the past 6 months has definitely changed the way i post.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:57 (sixteen years ago) link

the trade-off is that you get me reviving unkle threads

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:59 (sixteen years ago) link

i can listen to anything but it has to be real, real quiet

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:02 (sixteen years ago) link

muzak-rap

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:02 (sixteen years ago) link

can't say i get that much out of the rnb thread - it's okay but only the best one on ilm by default. certainly an old ppls home compared to the old dancehall and grime rollaz, dudes were hungry then.

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:02 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah there's a definite sense that the hunger is gone in some current threads, kind of what i was getting at when i said that some people started putting more work into blogging and freelancing at the expense of their ILM contributions.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:06 (sixteen years ago) link

whats finney's thing now anyway, i only ever see him on retro threads, housey threads, stuff pitchfork sent him threads and dialectical conundrums to exercise himself on threads? not being bad or nothing but he was kinda the kogan-brand glue of his day.

mitch as well, what happened there

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:09 (sixteen years ago) link

mitch posts as jermainetwo

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:09 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah i know but... what happened there

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:11 (sixteen years ago) link

maybe we all cynicalized him out of listening to stuff with lyrics

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:13 (sixteen years ago) link

dialectical conundrums to exercise himself on threads

haha

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:15 (sixteen years ago) link

the tori amos thread rtc

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:15 (sixteen years ago) link

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