Post a controversial music opinion

'Pablo Picasso' also seems relevant here.

pomenitul at 4:29 1 Feb 21

in the 60s actual incels were creating and lobbying for prog rock. yes: shots fired. it's what i do and this is the topic for it.
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I bet prog rock bands partied like everyone else, all this is now is some word to project on to music you don't like

more and more I think that Kogan theory that we have gut reactions to music then make up the reasons later is pretty much correct

modern lovers is incel rock for sure. maybe not militant incel rock. but he's definitely planting some seeds there for sure. that's also an overrated but still listenable album.

as far as my prog thing, enh. a bit hyperbole maybe, but today's neckbeards are just yesterday's rabid genesis fans. i wasn't a person in 1975, but i can say 100% for certain that there were more than a few trench coats and fedoras worn to king crimson gigs. of course the bands partied hard — the fans would have too, had they been given the opportunity.

more and more I think that Kogan theory that we have gut reactions to music then make up the reasons later is pretty much correct

There's quite a bit of truth to that but gut reactions don't come out of nowhere. We're reacting to something in the music, even if the spectrum of responses is mind-bogglingly broad.

gut reactions don't come out of nowhere. We're reacting to something in the music

getting far afield from pet sounds but as a general principle I'd say gut reactions very frequently come out of nowhere, and even when they come from somewhere, it's often from your own interior and isn't related to its ostensible outside referent

The Modern Lovers' "I'm Straight" always struck me as the perfect "self-proclaimed nice guy is actually a total creep" song

tr33ship has a whole thing on this; I think we debated it on the thread devoted to this topic (songs where the singer is supposedly coming off as a creep).

or actually I think his thing was about the song "Hospital"

Nah, that's borderline solipsism. I think the range of possible responses is so wide that we tend to assume it could be literally anything, but that's not quite true, strictly speaking. Music is more than a Rorschach test imo.

2xp

xp
Hospital discussion rings a bell.

I think where I differ with a lot of "I'm Straight" takes is when I first heard it I assumed the point of the song was to mock the narrator (the bit where he begrudgingly pretends to also like Hippie Johnny cracks me up, his neuroses are so transparent), and no amount of learning about Richman will ever dislodge that interpretation from my brain.

xp It's not nothin. And you already related all this to a hatred of "kiddie" music that could go back to before you're aware. Let's explore!

have always been impressed by how clearly the lyrics of Wouldn't It Be Nice convey the exact teenage emotion it’s going for. in that sense it is a good B-side to God Only Knows, which although more adult and complicated is also very direct and yearning

And you already related all this to a hatred of "kiddie" music that could go back to before you're aware.

Then it makes sense that I would react poorly to music that foregrounds tweenage themes, no? I'm bringing something to the table – my own biases – but that 'something' is a direct response to what's in the music, so I don't think it's fair to say that it comes out of nowhere. Apologies if I'm misreading you, but my 'gut reaction' to PS would be way more subjective if I were railing against its supposed timbral distortion and abrasiveness, say (now that would be bizarre!).

xxxp I've always thought of Richman as being pretty self-aware in those songs, in terms of what his "narrator" was expressing (NB: I know almost nothing about JR personally, or the degree to which he was/is really "like that"). I also just think mocking "hippie Johnny" is hilarious (the "I like him too..." line may be one of my all-time favorites).

My read of eephus's "your own interior" would include the biases you bring.

Yeah, but they added 'and isn't related to its ostensible outside referent', which I think is a step too far.

It would be too far to say that's how you relate to all music, but not that it happened in this seemingly extreme case. It's a possible thing, no?

Is Genesis's Selling England By the Pound "upsell rock"?

It's technically possible, yes, but since I'm hardly the only person who feels this way about PS, and for very similar reasons, it seems highly unlikely. Look, it just sounds painfully corny to my ears – that's not an especially outlandish or surreal statement, I don't think.

xp

I have no issue. I think it has rightfully come down a peg from the turn of the century hyperbole. I think people were just trying to help you stop waking up in terror about how bad it is?

lol, and I do appreciate it!

Behind every challop itt is a cry for help.

Haha, Neanderthal.

I think this is the most I've ever disagreed with pomenitul!

it’s too bad some of the lyrics are creepy because musically that modern lovers album is so righteous

I guess I feel the “creepy” lyrics are a feature, not a bug.

does richman’s later stuff have that same creepy vibe? it’s been a while since i listened to any of it but it seemed like he went off in a pretty different direction.

yeah, jr's an eccentric guy — maybe it was intentional?

also have to agree that just the overall sound and sonic aesthetic of pet sounds is pretty schmaltzy. still decent tho.

I think this is the most I've ever disagreed with pomenitul!

Alas. I'm sure you've got a (to me) hair-raising musical challop up your sleeve (or two)!

xp I think the later stuff is where he became genuinely “childlike” (to circle back above); I haven’t heard much of it, though.

To expand further on my earlier thought: I think the concept of eating health food at home suuuucks, but it’s interesting to hear a song’s narrator rationalize, “I don’t wanna hang out with your junky ass anyway!”

"wouldn't it be nice" is a queer anthem if you ask me.

yeah and as I said if a queer teenager in 2021 (e.g., my own personal offspring) hears that, then I am on board with that interpretation

I get that Brian himself was neither queer nor incel. But if these readings are gaining resonance 54-55 years onward, then maybe somethiing interesting is going on

But I also don't wanna join in boomer nostalgia-worship, that shit is played out like an eight-track

Music is more than a Rorschach test imo.

How is this even up for discussion lol

A dial tone can be either The Tired Sounds of Stars of the Lid or London Calling depending on who's listening to it, y'know.

music is entirely a Rorschach test

the whole concept of controversial music opinions is an argument for subjectivity, that all expressions of our likes and dislikes are a product of our personalities and experiences and not related to any outside referents

As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.

I mean, my reaction to Pet Sounds is/was pretty much the complete polar opposite of pomenitul's, down to: my love of PS misled me to believe that i might give a shit about "critically acclaimed music". I mean, there are records i prefer to Pet Sounds but few if any that appear on music critics' lists.

But ok, if you're going to argue that it's "painfully corny", i can't honestly say that "painfully corny" has nothing at all to do with my experience of Pet Sounds

At some point, I will attempt to write something about why I don't think it's corny or juvenile, although if music is purely a Rorschach tests and all responses to it are pure interiority with no relation to outside referents and existence is meaningless, I'm not sure if there's a point. What good would writing do me?

Honestly I find it very easy to put myself in the shoes of people who strongly dislike the music that I love. A given musical quality can fall on one side of the critical divide or the other depending on who's listening, but that doesn't mean we're hearing completely different things, solipsistically.

Pet Sounds is a chicken casserole imo.

Like, if someone says Gilmour-era Pink Floyd is terminally boring faux-deep dadcore or whatever, I know exactly what they're talking about, even though I myself don't experience it the same way at all.

xp

I'm guessing you mean "Gilmour era" as in "post-Piper" but if you mean the post-Waters Gilmour-led Pink Floyd, that's actually impressive and maybe a controp if you hear none of it that way.

I do mean post-Piper, yeah. That wasn't entirely clear, sorry.

As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.

― pomenitul, Monday, February 1, 2021 4:32 PM

earlier in this very topic, i believe it was me who declared that all bands are terrible.

i'd like to think the proper way to word this conclusion is:

all bands are terrible, so as a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.

throw the rorschach thing in there, and yeah: just cut my ears off, we're done here. the whole thing was noting but a stupid thought experiment. cue simpsons clip of comic book guy about to die.

Alternatively, 'Talk Talk is just some mumbling self-important bloke singing formless songs with no proper hooks' is also an understandable statement, regardless of how much I might emotionally disagree with it.

all bands are terrible, so as a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.

New board description imo.

I wasn't trying to say that opinions about music are worthless, they are what I live for here

When people say a piece of music is "corny" very often what that means ime is that it's overtly emotionally manipulative, PS is totally "guilty" in that sense. And others.

I don't think it's juvenile, but then again i'm extremely juvenile myself.

Itt people are presuming that the way to discredit the concept of a rorschach test is to deny the existence of ink and paper

Also, *this* is yr new board description:

At some point, I will attempt to write something about why I don't think it's corny or juvenile, although if music is purely a Rorschach tests and all responses to it are pure interiority with no relation to outside referents and existence is meaningless, I'm not sure if there's a point. What good would writing do me?

― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:38 (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Bit long for a board description

neither queer nor incel.

Fancy seeing you here, deems.