The Who : Classic or Dud

Yep, exactly.

Thirded

Tommy’s pretentiousness is still to some degree laced or connected with that earlier weirdness. Either that or I give it a pass because it is the album I knew best first.

Also, don’t know if I should scratch this itch or not, but there is also the delicate question of whether The Ox started overplaying at some point.

You'll be accusing Keith Moon of overplaying next.

Ha, that’s different

as a teen in Australia in the late 80’s early 90s the only Who i ever heard was 60’s Who - substitute, my gen, i’m a boy, kids are alright, happy jack, all that stuff —- but there are was a lot of early Kinks in the mix too, all that mod/teddy stuff was kinda cool for some reason, mixed w sex pistols & british punk for reasons i am not sure of

i didnt really encounter late Who ~in the wild~ until i moved to the US, radio was always playing Who Are You or Eminence Front which seemed v weird to me, like why do they play THIS and none of the cool stuff

maybe the 60’s stuff just hit better in Australia bc of british invasion Easybeats & all that idk

Tommy is completely absurd, being about a deaf, dumb, and blind kid who becomes a messiah via pinball. I can see how Who’s Next might be seen as lacking in humor, but then there’s “Goin’ Mobile” and “My Wife.” Quadrophenia has “Bell Boy,” but the inclusion of “We Close Tonight” and/or “Four Faces” would’ve taken a big chunk out of that record’s heaviness. By Numbers has “Squeeze Box” and “Success Story,” and while Who Are You is probably their most po-faced record, “Guitar And Pen” is certainly absurd (and doesn’t quite work), and “Who Are You” has some funny lines.

But there wasn’t going to be another “I’m A Boy” or “Dogs” after Tommy, it’s true. And “classic rock” radio has all but erased that side of them for US listeners. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve played “Anyway Anyhow Anywhere” or Sell Out for friends who only know The Heavy Seventies Hits; the reaction is always, “That’s the Who?!”

I'm totally a '65-67 Who lover (extending to some songs from '68) these days, and have been for quite some time. But one thing that keeps Who's Next alive for me are the songs that aren't one of the overplayed three (and for some reason, I've never gotten tired of "Baba O'Riley"): "My Wife," "Going Mobile," and "Bargain" especially. I think the only song I've never cared for, not now and not back in high school, is "The Song Is Over."

In addition to The Jam there were also other explicit and implicit connections between the punk/New Wave and Mods/British Invasion.

xp 2 VG

The punkfox

i didnt really encounter late Who ~in the wild~ until i moved to the US, radio was always playing Who Are You or Eminence Front which seemed v weird to me, like why do they play THIS and none of the cool stuff

Yeah, “I Can See For Miles” you would hear quite often on US radio. Whereas for “My Generation” you really needed an edgier show or station.

A lot of the music on Tommy still sounds something like the earlier stuff. “Rael” and “Sparks” obviously, but even beyond that.

a guy in my year 10 art class had I WAS BORN WITH A PLASTIC SPOON IN MY MOUTH scrawled on his pencil case in white-out

the who were fkn cool as shit to us 90’s teens lol

i still love their 60’s stuff the best

I would suggest that the erasure of the '60s era Who in the US mostly happened after the mid '80s. Yes, US Decca famously mishandled the early Who records and they weren't the hits they should've been, but in the late '70s you could find those double album reissues of their pre-Tommy LPs in every record store; they'd been reissued in that form in '74 but were still in print into the early '80s. Also both Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy and Odds and Sods sold very well in the '70s and The Kids Are Alright soundtrack went platinum. I guess it was the increasingly exclusionary AOR/Classic Rock playlists plus the lack of mod tradition in the US that eventually buried that early material.

One thing is that, apart from “I Can See For Miles,” none of the early Who singles were big hits in the US. Some, like “Anyway,” didn’t chart here at all, and others, like “Dogs,” weren’t even released in the US at the time. That said, I do remember hearing some of the ‘65-‘68 songs regularly on the radio in the late ‘70s - mid ‘80s but haven’t heard them in the wild in at least 20 years.

I was going to mention the fact that they 9 Top 10 hits in the UK so they were a pretty successful pop group.

.., in the 60s that is.

Their US label, Decca, had no idea how to promote them (or any other rock band, for that matter) here. Their early singles got a lot of airplay in the industrial Midwest — Detroit embraced them immediately — but they didn’t make a national splash until they’d done a couple of coast-to-coast tours and appeared on the Smothers Brothers TV show. And even then, Sell Out’s chart peak in the US was #48.

The interesting thing is that — as Dave Marsh has pointed out — in the US in the ‘60s, the Who were seen as part of a nebulous “UK underground” scene, with Cream and Hendrix; but in the UK at the time, they were a pop singles band, and no threat to the Heaviness of Cream or Hendrix.

I count "Substitute"/"Circles" as the greatest two-sided single ever.

Nice interview by Kenney Jones on his time with the Who, which makes it a rarity. Some very sweet anecdotes:

From the last time he saw Keith Moon, who was a close friend:

Afterwards, we met each other in the lobby, and I said, “See you later, Keith. See you soon.” And he went, “Yeah, great, see you Kenney my friend, bye-bye.” That was it. In the morning, the news came on straight away on the television and reported he died of a drug overdose. I thought, What’s he up to now? He’s playing another bloody joke. He can’t be, because I’ve just been with him. Sure enough, it was true and I could not believe it. Absolutely could not believe it. It’s only when I joined the Who when I found out exactly what happened...He went home, took his nighttime pill (Heminevrin), which was prescribed to Moon by his doctor., and went to bed. He woke up a couple of hours later and thought it was morning, so he took another pill. If you take too many pills close together, it slows your heart down. That’s what happened. It’s terrible. It all happened so fast. I’ll never forget the next few days. Near my home was where he was cremated, and I wanted to get to the crematorium before anyone, no press or anything, so I went earlier in the morning with a little wreath and a note, and I said good-bye to him on my own.

His friendship with Roger Daltrey - even though Daltrey has criticized Jones's drumming, Jones was friends with all of them, long before he joined the Who:

I used to see Pete a lot. Roger, not that often because he was living in the countryside that was outside of London. I went to see him a few times there. He had a fantastic trout farm...Every time I visited he would go, “Get in the boat,” and we went out in a row boat and fed the fish. I remember one day we boated out to the middle of the water with food and a bunch of piranhas circled the boat. He just went, “Don’t fall over the edge, they’re going to bite your leg off.” How the hell did they get into the trout farm? [Laughs.]

On Zak Starkey:

I was already doing stuff with Paul Rodgers and various other bands. I’d made my break from the Who and that was that. We were moving on. I wasn’t surprised that Zak joined. I virtually taught him how to play the drums when he was a little kid. I was great friends with Ringo StarrOne of the most amusing rock facts (to this writer, anyway) is that Ringo, noted famous drummer for another band, is Zak’s father. and his wife, Maureen, even though they were separated when Zak was young. When I joined the Who, I got Keith’s white drum kit out of storage and gave it to Zak. He had told me as a little boy that Keith had always promised him that drum kit. So I put it in a van and surprised him after school with it one day. I did my bit for him. I like him. I think Zak’s done a wonderful job with the Who. It’s a great thing and I think it’s lovely. They needed a young drummer, someone fit.

Didn't realize this, but some of the pop-up footnotes in that interview actually got copied into the main body of the text.

Great drummer; I'd pick Ogden's Nut Gone Flake over any Who album except Quadrophenia.

Yes, he's a fantastic drummer.

Dunno how to link to it, but there’s a great new Townshend thing on Audible called Somebody Saved Me. It’s focused on 1978-2002, bookended by the deaths of Moon and Entwistle, and includes solo re-recordings of some ‘80-‘82 songs.

Thanks for the tip!

Re: 80-82 songs, I've actually grown to like Empty Glass quite a bit, which seemed to have a good number of fans anyway. But I've also come around to the idea that Face Dances could've been a good and commendable album. The 1997 remix actually rectifies the soft, muted sound of the original mix - Kenney Jones's drums really did sound like "pudding" on the original LP (his words at the time) and that alone is a big improvement on the remix. Better still are the bonus tracks included with the remix, and at least a couple of them should have made the album - I would replace "Cache Cache" and "Did You Steal My Money" with "It's In You" and "Somebody Saved Me" respectively. Throw in the Pete Townshend B-side "Dance It Away" to open side B, and the final 10-track album would have been a good one to go out on. (Even though "Dance It Away" was released as a Townshend B-side, it may have been a Who outtake - notice that Jones and Entwistle are the only players besides Townshend, and from what I can tell there were no sessions for Townshend's solo recordings back then that had the three of them booked.

“Cache” is one of my favorites on Face Dances, and “Steal” has really grown on me over the years — a weird Police/Steely Dan pastiche that I can imagine Donald Fagen singing. The weakest song for me has always been “You” — I don’t know if it’s on this or another Who thread, but I wondered why/how Entwistle’s writing went from wry and funny to crushingly generic.

That said, yeah, Face Dances would’ve been improved by the inclusion of a couple of the then-unreleased songs (“I Like Nightmares” is my favorite of those). But apparently the rest of the band made the decisions about what should or shouldn’t be included (they had previously rejected “Empty Glass” and “No Road Romance” for Who Are You). If Daltrey was the one who rejected “Somebody Saved Me,” I’d be surprised, since he sang it on solo tours.

Ultimately, the biggest problem with Face Dances is the horrible production. Bill Szymczyk made some comment along the lines of, “Entwistle needs to understand that he’s the bassist, not a lead player.” I mean, had Szymczyk even heard the Who before?

The “Dance It Away” that came out as a Townshend b-side is a different recording from the Face Dances outtake, and was recorded with either Mark Brzezicki or Simon Phillips on drums, and Tony Butler on bass. Here’s the Who version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDJtJp359dY

Interesting, where did you get that info on "Dance It Away"? I know that version posted in the YouTube link, it was shared on the Hoffman forum, and in the same thread the consensus seemed to be that the personnel for the Townshend B-side had Entwistle on bass and Jones on drums.

I'm still searching, but while there are a ton of blog posts and a reddit thread that credits Entwistle and Jones to that B-side recording, I still haven't found a definitive sessionography. I know it was included as a bonus track to the 2006 reissue of All the Best Cowboys since it was a B-side to one of its albums tracks - for that reason, it would make sense for either Mark Brzezicki or Simon Phillips to be on drums and for Tony Butler to be on bass, but there doesn't seem to be credits that confirm this either.

Honestly, it just doesn't sound like Jones and Entwistle to me. It sounds too slightly-ahead-of-the-beat for Jones, and I don't hear any of Entwistle's trademark fingertaps/slaps. And the 16th-note figure on the bass drum that I hear in the verses (starting at 0:23) has much more pop than any recording of Jones' bass drum that I've heard. Also, what would've been the occasion for the session/recording? The Who were waiting around for Pete to get out of rehab, and actually started It's Hard without him ("It's Your Turn" has Andy Fairweather-Low in Townshend's place). So why would Pete have recorded "Dance It Away" with John and Kenney during the Cowboys sessions (it definitely sounds like a Chris Thomas production) in lieu of a Who session?

To be sure, I could be completely wrong about this, and Kenney had played on Townshend solo records before -- he's on "Rough Boys," but compare the drumming and sound on that track to "Dance It Away." They don't sound like the same drummer to me.

Further muddying the waters, there are supposedly tracks on the 1980 McVicar soundtrack that have everyone in the Who, but a) I've never done a serious dive into that album to try to find out, and b) I haven't seen any documentation saying who's on which tracks on that record.

Also, what would've been the occasion for the session/recording? The Who were waiting around for Pete to get out of rehab, and actually started It's Hard without him ("It's Your Turn" has Andy Fairweather-Low in Townshend's place). So why would Pete have recorded "Dance It Away" with John and Kenney during the Cowboys sessions (it definitely sounds like a Chris Thomas production) in lieu of a Who session?

It sounds like those who say it's Entwistle and Jones are arguing that it could very well have been another take from Face Dances. Honestly can't say myself, I just put my trust in their judgment since they seem to know the Who far more than I will ever know.

(the Face Dances sessions that is)

Unless there's anecdotal evidence and reliable documentation (and I have no idea if there is or isn't), I'm inclined to go with your argument just from past experience on these matters. If no one remembers recording it with those three and there's not even documentation of a session with those three (especially one that produced more than that recording), it's likely they didn't record the B-side. But the fine details of that era of the Who are virtually unknown to me beyond what I'd read on a record sleeve.

Given how different it sounds from the Daltrey-sung version, I don’t think it was recorded at the Face Dances sessions. And the production styles are almost the opposite of one another (the flumpfiness of Face Dances vs. Chris Thomas’s sharp, vibrant sound on Cowboys/the b-side).

First show in Cincinnati last night since 1979:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELtzqT53DBk

They last played this 40 years ago, when the oldest member of the Who was 38:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9_GrVqL7fc

I do enjoy them as late as Quadrophenia the original lp and did enjoy the film .
NOt sure what I've really heard of them after that point. THink I never got a copy of By Numbers.
Love them mid 60s to early 70s. Love the Pop Art take on mod and so on. & the psychedelic stuff.

Semi wish they'd quit before they got old.

Do have a special place in my heart for those 8 years though.
& the MC5 seem to be close to them plus another guitar plus more overt jazz influence. Seemed that Townshend was working with a lot of influence from jazz after inheriting a record collection from an upstairs neighbour who was being deported in the mid 60s.
Wonder waht would have happened if Eddie Phillips had joined on 2nd guitar.
& the pre Who or at least Pre High Numbers band had been stretching numbers out live in like 64 which I'd love to hear more of.
& see more of things like the Batik button down Pete was wearing in presumably 64 photos of which were circulating a few years ago. JUdging by their hair must have been pretty early. & I think they had settled on the name The Who prior to being renamed the High Numbers for their first single.

Incredibly, even Zak Starkey is 57.

Heard the "Live at Leeds" version of "Magic Bus" on the radio yesterday and realized in the end that may be all I really need from the Who, that live record, but I do put on "Quadrophenia" now and then. And I rarely turn off the radio when something from "Who's Next" comes on.

For UK residents

On Sky Arts tonight:

20.00 Classic Albums: The Who Sell Out (seen it)
21:00 Live At Kilburn 1977 (can't remember if this or Live At Charlton is supposed to be not very good)
22:25 Classic Quadrophenia (Townshend with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra et al. No interest in this I'm afraid!)

Seemed that Townshend was working with a lot of influence from jazz after inheriting a record collection from an upstairs neighbour who was being deported in the mid 60s.

That was actually Townshend's art school roommate Tom Wright, who passed away in July. He later went on to manage the Grande Ballroom in Detroit. Wright was a US expat, and was deported when busted for pot possession. According to Townshend's art school friend Richard Barnes, the record collection included “…all of Jimmy Reed’s albums, all of Chuck Berry’s, all of James Brown’s, Bo Diddley, John Lee Hooker, Snooks Eaglin, Mose Allison, all of Jimmy Smith’s, Muddy Waters, Lightnin’ Hopkins, Howlin’ Wolf, Slim Harpo, Buddy Guy, Big Bill Broonzy, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee, Joe Turner, Nina Simone, Booker T., Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, the Isley Brothers, Fats Domino, the Coasters, Ray Charles, Jimmy McGriff, Brother Jack McDuff, John Patton, Bobby Bland, the Drifters, the Miracles, the Shirelles, the Impressions and many jazz albums including Charlie Parker, Mingus, Coltrane, Miles Davis, Milt Jackson, Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Giuffre, Dave Brubeck, plus albums by Jonathan Winters, Mort Sahl, Shelley Berman and particularly Lord Buckley. There were also about thirty classical albums.”

That was in 1962-63, I believe. My understanding is that very few people in the UK, outside of a handful of hipster collectors, had a collection of that size and scope at the time.

Townshend was also a Sun Ra fanatic, citing The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume 1 as his favorite, and a big influence on the My Generation album ("You can't hear it in the music, but it's there somewhere.")

21:00 Live At Kilburn 1977 (can't remember if this or Live At Charlton is supposed to be not very good)

Ha, they're both considered -- mainly by the Who themselves -- a little sub-par, but the Who's "sub-par" is most other bands' "career highlight."

Kilburn was set up so there'd be some post-'75 footage for The Kids Are Alright. But everyone in the band hated the gig, so it was shelved. In mid-'78 they made another attempt, filming just the two songs ("Baba O'Riley" and "Won't Get Fooled Again") that would be used in the film.

But I and many other Who fans feel that Kilburn is a far superior performance to the later show. Moon especially is in exponentially better shape on this show than on the '78 songs, and it has the only live performance of "Who Are You" (in a slightly embryonic state) with Moon.

Good, I was definitely going to watch it anyway!

Townshend was in a foul mood which seemed to affect the rest of the band - apart from Moon who was doing his best to jolly things along.

The Isle of Wight 1970 show is worth finding, but mostly if you watch it. It's not a candidate for their greatest show like Leeds or the Fillmore in 1968, but it's a great show nonetheless and aside from the abbreviated sets at Monterey Pop and Woodstock the only show from that era that was properly filmed for almost all of it.

Newly-discovered footage of the December 3, 1979 Cincinnati show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Nv-MUVgTU

The Who were unaware of the tragedy until after the show. Five days later, their Chicago show was broadcast via closed-circuit to local theaters, and parts of it were released. The difference between Townshend's demeanor here and in Chicago is stark (he said in 2019 that he remembered it being a particularly good show). Here he's focused, enjoying himself, energized; on the Chicago show, he's hammered, coked to the gills, distracted, and vacillates wildly between wanting to soldier through the show and seemingly wondering what the fuck the point of it all is, given the tragic events days earlier. As he said years later, the Who should've cancelled the rest of their tour and broken up immediately after Cincinnati.

Man, that's a band even Arthur Carlson could love right there

that baba o'riley vid is stellar!

kinda deserves an xpost to a who thread

― corrs unplugged, Monday, July 31, 2023 3:37 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Hit the "marimba repeat" switch on a Lowrey Berkshire Deluxe TBO-1, and you get this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgPtksNqbCk

^^^This video kinda blew my mind, I guess the oral legend I was told/read was the above part was a bit more edited/tape-loop/spliced etc.

That said, does anyone know if Nico's "Frozen Warnings" (song) uses the above technique or something similar?

Cool! But the little image of Don Knotts spooked me a bit.