Phil Spector's dead to me now

i believe these records would have been just as special without spector. somebody would have recorded them, anyway.

Agree that Spector has been over-glorified at the expense of everyone else who worked on the records but isn't this going too far? Didn't he often commission the songs, participate in the writing process, match them to the groups, assemble the sessions - seems likely that some of those records would not have been made.

Spector played some guitar and piano iirc, but regardless there is little doubt the maniac still had a lot of control over the final form and sounds of those recordings if not, you know, exactly where to put the mic or whatever. This is not to discredit the incredible singers and musicians and engineers and others involved in making the albums sound the way they do, but that goes for everything from the Byrds to the Beach Boys to "Thriller" to literally hundreds of remarkable recordings made with the invaluable assistance of session musicians and behind the scenes assistants. Scam or no, Phil Spector was maybe the first to elevate the role of producer from technician to auteur, and there is little doubt that folks from Brian Eno to Rick Rubin owe him a debt in that regard even if both similarly neither play nor engineer shit.

Had that discussion somewhere else and some would assign that honor to Mitch Miller, believe it or not. See also “Come On-a My House.”#OneThread

it astounds me that it took an entire fucking documentary to shine a light on world-class musicians of several decades

spector was a bad guy. it's also pretty clear that he's the primary reason why his records sound the way they do, and the "record producers don't actually do anything" argument is super-disingenuous.

Posted this on What Are You Listening To 2020:

Heard a doc about this last night on Public Radio, but maybe American or something, can't find it on npr.org so far---anyway, blasts of multi-d music, several whole tracks, between brief interviews w participants----Crystals, Ronettes, other recombinant groups backed by/interacting with the Wrecking Crew and Phil's orchestral hordes, then I played the whole thing on the 'Tube ---the original songs mix well w roasted chestnuts---pretty psychedelic:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51MgJ5FDw9L._SX355_.jpg

i wouldnt like to necessarily discredit spector and dont deny that he may have been the 'first', but i may argue that it's likely his contributions were largely virtual and minimal compared to the toil and execution of the engineers, musicians, writers etc at his possible helm and disposal. dunno about you but i dont reckon the sound of a record is coloured that much by someone pushing others around and telling everyone to stand in the same room together and play everything at once.

https://i.imgur.com/gKRtNNW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nE6B8Xg.jpg

goddamnit imgur!

@TylerMahanCoe
3h
Since apparently a lot of people are unaware, a producer's job is to steward and facilitate the work of an artist, not push the work over and piss on it to mark territory. Phil Spector was a portrait of the music industry at its worst and that is the only legacy he gets.

A terrible person--long before the murder--but I hope he doesn't get written out of his own records. He conceived the sound. Others executed that sound, and they deserve all the credit due to them, but the sound was conceptualized by Spector.

xpost That's just silly. Take the "Be My Baby" beat alone. Hal Blaine has told different versions of its origin, but he's always called it a mistake, and Spector was the one that told them to keep it in. That alone is historic. But also Spector is the one that hired the musicians in the first place, picked the songs, picked the takes, decided to add castanets or four saxophones etc. There is plenty of credit to go around.

i always sound stupid when i try to express my anger about these things. i think im writing with vitriol toward egotism surrounding governance in record production. half these people just get in the way usually. i have heard more a lot more horror stories than fairytales when it comes to record producers. it makes me very cross.

Not to say Spector's approach/attitude always worked out. But the documentary I heard, hosted by Anthony DeCurtis, incl. interviews with principals that give some insight into how it all worked---like one guy was scared that his mistakes had ruined a take (these particular sessions were expensive as hell, for various reasons mentioned), and he confessed to Phil, who was all, "Na, listen to what I got!" The take sounded great, and that was in part due to having so many musos playing the same note---the player's mistakes got swallowed, and maybe others too.

I remember seeing some notes he'd written for George Harrison charting out ideas for particular songs and what to do about his limited singing abilities etc. Sensitively handled, amongst other things...

So, basically, if he respected the artist he was working with, or decided to, well anyway etc

"Decided to" is prob key.

Not that this is the arbiter of anything, but out of curiosity I checked the Rock and Roll HOF inductees. The Ronettes, Darlene Love, the Righteous Brothers, and Hal Blaine have all been inducted. (Ike & Tina Turner and Gene Pitney, too, although their connection to Spector is more incidental.) That doesn't begin to cover everybody who made those records what they were, and there will be lots of participants who will never get their due. That's the way it is with collaborative art--you could say the same of every film by every great filmmaker. But some of the primary participants have received much of the recognition they deserved, even if it took a while for some.

half these people just get in the way usually. i have heard more a lot more horror stories than fairytales when it comes to record producers. it makes me very cross.

xposts maelin you dont sound stupid at all, and you have put voice to a lot of my own reservations about Spector - thank you!

it sucks that both things can be true, that he was a sadistic narcissist abuser & murder and that he gained a reputation as a talented producer. That the latter tends to overshadow the former is the world we live in, and i hate it too

But ... we get Ronnie, Darlene & all the great voices & musicians out of the bargain ... which is a blessing, and i will happily talk about them til the cows come home

More on RROF honors:

On December 15, 2009, The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame announced that Greenwich and Barry would receive the Ahmet Ertegun Award in March 2010 (which was posthumously awarded to Greenwich) for helping to define the Brill Building sound. At the ceremony,(...) Carole King inducted Greenwich, Barry, and other songwriting colleagues from the 1950s and early 1960s, including Barry Mann & Cynthia Weil, Otis Blackwell (also posthumously), Mort Shuman and Jesse Stone. Ellie's award was accepted by her sister Laura, while Barry's acceptance was read by Steve van Zandt.

Working with Phil Spector was working with the best. So much to love about those days.

Falling in love was like a fairytale.

The magical music we made was inspired by our love.

He was a brilliant producer, but a lousy husband.

The music is forever 1939-2021 pic.twitter.com/x2ltPa1frq

— Ronnie Spector (@RonnieSpectorGS) January 17, 2021

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Er9nr6_XYAAfli9?format=jpg&name=large

this guy seems to equate autism spectrum conditions with the murderous control freak aspect of big phil, what a total fucking arsehole.

(xpost) I don't usually associate the word "anguished" with tweets, but I'm sure that one was.

Glyn Johns said on Sound Opinions that a record producer was equal to a film director, and he's far from the only producer to say that too, but Phil Spector is probably the one who blew that role up to modern auteurist proportions. The vocalists, co-writers, session players and engineers were all important (just as the cast, crew, screenwriters, composers, etc. were all important to Hitchcock or Spielberg's films) but the final record was certainly molded into his personal vision.

But what a thoroughly terrible human being. Go look for his eulogy at Ike Turner's funeral - even with his ongoing trial amplifying his baggage, it did nothing to soften him up. He may have thoroughly scarred by his upbringing, but his enablers did nothing to help the situation either. (Tom Wolfe's mid-'60s profile is one of his best - he probably had Spector's number from the start.)

*may have been thoroughly scarred

Headline: Convicted Murderer dies in prison. Previously known for ruining the “Let It Be” album.

— Dave Foley (@DaveSFoley) January 18, 2021

And All Things Must Pass.

I don’t really see the point in saying “Fuck you!!” when a bad person dies, assuming their awfulness is generally acknowledged; and I think Specter is widely known to have been an awful human being. But I also don’t have an appetite for reflecting on his accomplishments, such as they are… I decided not to listen to anything he produced awhile back, despite my love of the genre.

Previously known for polishing a turd called the "Let It Be" album.

phil spectre

Turd > polished turd.

xp

Stinks either way.

Phil S.P.E.C.T.R.E

vvg vg

:D

Obv it's up to the individual as to where they draw the line regarding this, but many of those records he worked on are truly joyful music - in large part because of the contributions of other people - and I don't want to let this evil fuck's awfulness stop me from enjoying them. I do respect the choice of anyone else to listen to what they want to of course, for whatever reason.

There was a thread on this subject a few weeks ago...it's going to come up with so many people now (though few as horrifying as Spector).

Someone asked Greil Marcus about Van Morrison (his COVID songs, which I have no interest in hearing) in an e-mail to the Marcus site a couple of weeks ago. I thought the last line of his response was good: "Put on some Van Morrison. Something long. Just let it play. See if it’s still part of you, or if you have to turn it off."

many of those records he worked on are truly joyful music - in large part because of the contributions of other people - and I don't want to let this evil fuck's awfulness stop me from enjoying them

He may ultimately be the "auteur," but those records also belong to Ronnie, Darlene Love and everyone else who sang them. As Darlene Love's lawyer put it to Spector (when he claimed that he didn't owe her shit, as in royalties), if she wasn't that important, why not release an instrumental? She talked about it in far more detail today than Ronnie, but everyone was proud of those records - it's part of their life's work and it's arguably their legacy. They always meant the world to them. The fact that Love couldn't get credit for many of the records she sang, they way she was denied royalties that were entitled to her, the way Spector tried to control her - even attempting litigation to prevent her from singing the hits he claimed he alone "owned" - that shit hurt as much as anything else he's done. When she won her court battles, she got everything she wanted - not just money, but recognition and the right to sing whatever she wanted. So don't feel bad about enjoying them because think of everything she and others went through to not only get their due but stake their claim to that work.

If Eno or Rick Rubin were murderous psychopaths then I might be playing "grey area" on this, but packing a room full of musicians doesn't really make the dude a production genius or anything. The people who came after completely outclassed him in every way-- Ashford & Simpson, Harvey Fuqua, idk, this guy has always been musical fool's gold afaic. There is no Spector recording that I find interesting from a production perspective in any way. I'll save my mental gymnastics for when Robert Blake dies

I think his apotheosis was Death of a Ladies' Man. I can't imagine anyone else writing and recording that album. I suspect it was as close as he got to making a record of his own.

packing a room full of musicians doesn't really make the dude a production genius or anything

I'm not especially a fan of the wall of sound aesthetic either but isn't the 'genius' in part that he did something that was counterintuitive and contrary to most standard ideas about good recording and mixing and still made it work?

I'm not especially a fan of the wall of sound aesthetic either but isn't the 'genius' in part that he did something that was counterintuitive and contrary to most standard ideas about good recording and mixing and still made it work?

Pretty much. Saying he was merely "packing a room full of musicians" completely misses the point (partly because EVERY pop star of that era packed their studios with musicians). A lot of what Brian Wilson did for the Beach Boys came out of his unorthodox methods, which generally degraded and distorted the sound to an extreme degree. It was called a "wall of sound" because instruments were basically squashed together to the point where the sound of two different instruments playing the same notes or chords were no longer distinguishable. A ton of echo, a ton of dubbing and re-dubbing, a ton of compression - he didn't want listeners to be able to pick out different elements like you would on a hi-fi record of a small orchestra, he made something close to monolithic and overwhelming. It can be soggy and bathetic - despite a few masterpieces, most of his recordings with the Righteous Brothers and Ike & Tina Turner tracks were NOT really good - but he produced at least two dozen stone-cold classics on top of the rare Christmas LP that holds up as a great album.

Not an exact analogy, but this reminds me a bit of the Welles/Mankiewicz debate over Citizen Kane.

Not much of a real debate over Welles/Mankiewicz, that was only turned into one due to lazy speculation. Anyone who bothered to research the production documents like every draft that's been turned in could see how much of Mankiewicz's work was changed.

The debate goes on--someone turned it into a movie. (I mean, I side with Welles too, but it's there.)

Well, the movie got raked over the coals for it. Fincher and the producer eventually backpedaled and downplayed that idea when the NY Times interviewed them about it. (In the end, the best defense they had was that the film was from Mank's skewed POV, hence it was what he wrongly believed.)

Bringing it back to Spector and the question of authorship, I don't think there's necessarily a standard formula that can be applied. Ultimately you have to weigh the work on a case-by-case basis. For example, Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Duke Elligton Songbook is Ella's album only in the sense that she's the primary artist. Duke and Strayhorn wrote and arranged all the music, it's their band...I have no problem grouping it with other Ellington album when considering that body of work. But the album is centered on Ella's vocal interpretations of those songs. It's mainly about her singing. With Spector's '60s records, I think the balance is tilted more towards Spector because that big sound is the main focus of those records IMHO. I still think of them as Ronettes or Crystals or Darlene Love records, but when you string them all together, they all have a unifying sound that comes straight out of the production. You could say the same for, say, a Motown record but with Spector that authorship has been defined by a single person rather than a team/label. He's not the sole artist, but he's the primary voice.

"voice" in a figurative sense, not in the literal sense as in singing of course

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/darlene-love-phil-spector-death-1115794/

I'm not especially a fan of the wall of sound aesthetic either but isn't the 'genius' in part that he did something that was counterintuitive and contrary to most standard ideas about good recording and mixing and still made it work?

I don't hear it! If we're gonna pit murderous record producers head-to-head, I find so much more interest and innovation in Joe Meek's production. And I can't think of any other producer who failed at their job so spectacularly as he did w Cohen, with The Beatles-- it's particularly amazing how he took Ramones and turned their stoopid into just stupid. I like his work on the two Plastic Ono albums, good collaboration, there, and that's all there is for me with Spector; I admit I never listened to the Christmas album tho

Terrible person etc. but his initial work (i.e the Back To Mono boxset) was fantastic (with the input of many others of course).
Regarding his work with Lennon, I remember the original take for "Instant Karma", before production, and it's borderline terrible ! Somehow I can't find it back on YouTube.

Bill Wyman article good but

Ellie Greenwich and Phil Barry

Plus they worked for Leiber and Stoller and so they were actually in the Brill Building proper.

Also, LaLa Brooks sang “Da Doo Ron Ron,” which is not noted.

A couple of those lost Celine Dion tracks actually leaked. Not surprisingly, they're pure schlock, but if I had to sit through her records, the first track would be almost tolerable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pvvOnWOMTs