Thread of What Is Fascism And Is Donald Trump A Fascist

i think of someone saying "can you pass the gaslight" and the other says "what gaslight?" and then first one says "oh, i guess you don't remember that either now"

I know about the play and movie but I confess that my main mental image of "gaslighting" involves, like, a Bic lighter and a frat bro in acid-washed jeans who thinks farting is hilarious

Mine is Ingrid Bergman, which I confess I prefer.

your fart is Ingrid Bergman?

Notorious.

Murder on the Orient Fartspress

Lol.

I always think of someone shining a lamp in another person's face, the second person saying 'hey could you stop that,' and the first person going 'stop what' while continuing to shine the lamp.

lol, not bad.

Robert Evans answers the thread premise with "no, but..."

Trump’s encouragement of violence against his opponents at home has been unsystematic. He has told his supporters to rough up reporters and suggested during the 2016 election campaign that his followers might like to make use of the Second Amendment of the US constitution (the right to bear arms) against Hillary Clinton. He has also described white supremacists as “good people”. But this bears no comparison to the hundreds of thousands of armed and uniformed stormtroopers and Squadristi that the Nazi and fascist leaders deployed on to the streets daily in the 1920s and early 1930s to intimidate, beat up, arrest, imprison and often kill political opponents.

Hitler and Mussolini sought to transform their countries into perma-war states: a combination of education and propaganda on the one hand, and street-level violence and intimidation on the other, aimed to forge a new kind of citizen, one that was aggressive, regimented, arrogant, decisive, organised and obedient to the dictates of the state. GM Trevelyan poured scorn on Mussolini’s efforts to turn Italians into second-rate Germans, as the historian put it; but even in Germany this endeavour failed, except with a minority of Hitler’s most ardent followers.

The society Hitler wanted was portrayed in the final minutes of Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will (1935), with endless serried ranks of uniformed SS troops marching across the screen like well-oiled automata. The reality was different, as the majority of Germans retreated from this dehumanising prospect into their own private lives.

Trump by contrast has encouraged a warped vision of personal freedom: a society in which people aren’t subject to government regulation or supervision, where anarchy and confusion reign, self-restraint is abandoned, violence is unchecked, and self-aggrandising corruption permeates politics.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2021/01/why-trump-isnt-fascist

fuck off bob

TL:DR version = he loves fascism but is profoundly lazy

We all just lived through four years of Trump's presidency, preceded by a year of campaigning. I, for one, don't need a hundred thinkpieces telling me what I saw happen. It was like being force fed sewage through a tube for five years.

the focus on state power (either as protection against fascism or as “what fascism is” when it falls into the wrong hands) is misguided in the first place but the idea of trump as some kind of libertarian anti-statist (even just rhetorically) is total nonsense. the lock her up/build the wall/blue lives matter guy is big on personal freedom (even a warped version thereof) and an enemy of government regulation? I know those phrases are code for other things for the Right but there’s no need to adopt their framing

Otm

Trump by contrast has encouraged a warped vision of personal freedom: a society in which *CERTAIN* people aren’t subject to government regulation or supervision, where anarchy and confusion reign, self-restraint is abandoned, violence is unchecked, and self-aggrandising corruption permeates politics.

A substantial portion of the American population – and, indeed, a majority of members of the Republican Party – refuses to accept the election of president-elect Joe Biden. But that does not mean they want the constitution to be overthrown, merely that they don’t think it’s been employed fairly.

this is just embarrassing. this guy should never even try to write about american politics.

unfortunately we're going to be talking about trump for the rest of our lives (at least, i will, i bet), if for no other reason than to try to keep what actually happened from being wildly distorted. i'm especially thinking about the children of maga who will likely grow up learning that trump was an american hero who was torn down by the jealous liberals etc. there's going to be a constant spew of disinformation and just plain ignorance. it's exhausting to even bear witness to or think about, even now, which is why i think there will be plenty of room for the idiocy to be nurtured and grow and mutate

this is just embarrassing. this guy should never even try to write about american politics.

it means they either don't understand the constitution or don't think it applies to them

oops, meant to otm that as well :)

xxxpost "and who's to say if they're right or wrong?!"

will otm

ie there must be some whom the law protects but does not bind, and some whom the law binds but does not protect #RollingExplainingCosnervatism

Bob Evans, down on the farm

I greatly appreciate bellingcat's investigative work, but all the critics here are otm

the New Statesman piece is written by *Richard* Evans, please adjust your Bob jokes for Dick ones

Robert Evans answers the thread premise with "no, but..."

Trump’s encouragement of violence against his opponents at home has been unsystematic. He has told his supporters to rough up reporters and suggested during the 2016 election campaign that his followers might like to make use of the Second Amendment of the US constitution (the right to bear arms) against Hillary Clinton. He has also described white supremacists as “good people”. But this bears no comparison to the hundreds of thousands of armed and uniformed stormtroopers and Squadristi that the Nazi and fascist leaders deployed on to the streets daily in the 1920s and early 1930s to intimidate, beat up, arrest, imprison and often kill political opponents.
Hitler and Mussolini sought to transform their countries into perma-war states: a combination of education and propaganda on the one hand, and street-level violence and intimidation on the other, aimed to forge a new kind of citizen, one that was aggressive, regimented, arrogant, decisive, organised and obedient to the dictates of the state. GM Trevelyan poured scorn on Mussolini’s efforts to turn Italians into second-rate Germans, as the historian put it; but even in Germany this endeavour failed, except with a minority of Hitler’s most ardent followers.

The society Hitler wanted was portrayed in the final minutes of Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will (1935), with endless serried ranks of uniformed SS troops marching across the screen like well-oiled automata. The reality was different, as the majority of Germans retreated from this dehumanising prospect into their own private lives.

Trump by contrast has encouraged a warped vision of personal freedom: a society in which people aren’t subject to government regulation or supervision, where anarchy and confusion reign, self-restraint is abandoned, violence is unchecked, and self-aggrandising corruption permeates politics.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2021/01/why-trump-isnt-fascist

― stylish but illegal (Simon H.), Saturday, January 23, 2021 1:18 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

fuck off bob

― Left, Saturday, January 23, 2021 1:27 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Just want to say, this article was written by some guy named Richard Evans. Robert Evans would be the last person to say Trump wasn't a fash. Come on, people.

thank u both for the correction

Apologies! I just wanted to make a joke about breakfast sausages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR6OBgypWlY

I was wondering.

https://i.imgur.com/LyhxRDx.jpg

Richard Evans's Third Reich Trilogy is quite good

(bad Twitter follow, though, he was an anti-Corbyn melt and #resistance-y)

Melty old dick he may be but definitely knows a thing or two about fascism. The best living british historian of any profile imo

Just want to say, this article was written by some guy named Richard Evans. Robert Evans would be the last person to say Trump wasn't a fash. Come on, people.

my bad

at Bob Evans yr fascism comes with two scrumptious sides

Melty old dick he may be

Melty Old Dick is the best Pogues tune

Lol

Mouldy Old Dough

I feel like "is Donald Trump literally hitler or not" kind of misses the point in the end. There are many different kinds of demagogues. He was bad. He wasn't Hitler, but he was bad enough.

if he was even as much as 45% of Hitler, our democracy woulda rolled over and died easily, without a fight

"he was bad BUT AKSHUALLY..." article = fail

"fuck off dick"

so admittedly a big motivation for using the f word is in the hope of inspiring some kind of effect beyond what other words would be able to achieve but it's accurate enough that any quibbling over it is immediately suspect

do these people who think you can verify fascism with a checklist ever try comparing the various 20th century fascist regimes/movements with each other, or with their ideal version of fascism? pretty sure a lot of things that are universally considered fascist today would fail their test if they were this stingy in applying the word to the past

Robert Evans would have started off discussing whether or not Trump was a fascist, but would have gotten distracted and then talked about how much he loved Ali McGraw for a few hours

Did he want to bar Muslims from entering the country? Yes. Did he call Mexicans rapists and "bad hombres"? Also yes. But did he have an operating plan to build the country's economy through strategic investment and tax reform on big business? Not on your nelly, baby. We were rounding the fourteenth hole - Don was working on his slice, while I was fishing one out of the old-fashioned my caddy, Cherice, had handed me - when I asked him "Donald, if you could have it all over again, is there one woman you'd stick with?" He might have answered, but I was already thinking about Ali, and how I could now afford to have some Venice Beach muscle men send that rat bastard McQueen to FedEx to sign for a new set of teeth.

richard evans's "the coming of the third reich" is really good history, if a bit dry. his book on historiography, "in defense of history", is good too. he was also the main expert defense witness in david irving's trial against deborah lipstadt.

i don't have a problem with an expert on nazis pointing out the differences between the present situation and the nazis.

what is the intended effect of an intervention like this?

considering the number of credentialed historians who still refuse to call settler colonialism "genocide" I'm not inclined to just defer to the experts' definitions here