Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

(xp not table's problem specifically, though I sympathize deeply)

Definitely agree in that thread where it says about how being neutral, curious, dumb, open-hearted goes a long way (and, for the most part, aren't these kind of good approaches anyway?)

I think the key part is listening. Its easy to get fixated on being right, but being right is largely irrelevant. I posted earlier about my cousin thinking something about 'socialism', and the instinct is to roll eyes at the ludicrousness, that he has the definition wrong. But does he? Instead of disputing his understanding of the term, why not just roll with it instead?

I've come to see a lot of this way of thinking as metaphorical, and a literalist or tangible mindset doesn't really work.

Their guard is up because they feel we're going to tell not ask, we're going to act like we're smart and they're dumb. We're not interested in what they have to say, we're only interested in telling them what we think.

I know people have mixed feelings on the socratic method or whatever but when it doesn't work I think its more because people don't do it right, you do actually have to be genuine for it to stand any chance

To follow on from that, in thinking about my cousin but also another brainwormed person I know, the metaphorical thing. They're not really hearing the words but more like, the tone?

They have a combative, oppositional mindset, and you have to kind of sit outside that, otherwise you're just the foil. The minute you're fulfilling that role you're reinforcing everything regardless of what you say.

I see this often with covid. Someone will say something about covid, lockdowns, Bill Gates and the other person will say "actually Bill Gates isn't an evil microchip man stupid", and then proceed to do unpaid PR for Bill Gates, and further reinforce everything at the same time. Or what a terrible job people do on TV when put up against people by immediately setting themselves up as an opponent and scurrying around to refute every point like pavlovs dog without thinking about the bigger picture, immediately signalling to people to shut them out

TLDR because I find getting this right quite tricky but it feels like we fall into this trap

Brainworm Person: Necessity is the mother of invention
Logical Big Brain: You know, 'necessity' is a word not a lifeform its not actually capable of having children, not sure if you knew that. Also English is a gender neutral language, so thats also not true

Good posts

yeah

anvil, I do wonder what this approach ends up doing tho. I understand it allows you to keep cordial relations with the brainwormed and to report back your findings here, but has it helped assuage the brainworms in any way?

I'm shaking a bit here. An old schoolfriend, someone I've kept in touch with for a very long time and was always into hippyish alternative healing type stuff has just gone on a big rant about how Boris Johnson has turned the UK into a Communist state; how while she thinks Covid is a real thing the evidence points to fewer rather than more deaths; and has now announced she's quitting Facebook to go on Gab. I know this kind of thing happens all the time and has become a bit of a cliche, but to see it happen to someone I know personally and really had a bit more respect for (healing crystals and magic potions aside), it's shaken me up.

Friends don't let friends be devoured by rightwing brainworms believe in healing crystals
j/k both are unavoidable

There are people I've known in the past who I wonder whether they've gone the crazed hippy route nowadays. Seems to be something that happens with age sometimes - decades of weird reality denial to fit their absurd ideas around reality leads to a lurch over the cliff edge into full Piers Corbynism.

Crazy belief systems are a spectrum tbf

Reality is unbearable for the most part and epistemological contrition hard to achieve.

An acquaintance from progressive organizing circles went askew last summer and started posting that social distancing and stay-at-home policies were evil and would kill our souls like our overlords wanted, and no one could stop her from hugging people, etc. Definitely came out of the blue. I hope it was a reaction to reality and she eventually found other ways to cope.

I keep blathering about this, but my FIL very much fits that profile and now he's augmented his newfound worldview with ranting and raving about chemtrails. No 'official' source is worth taking seriously anymore and being cast out and/or called a quack by nearly all of your professional peers is the sole reliable sign that your 'whistleblowing' is the real deal. I asked him why he doesn't buy into climate change deniers then, but it's not the same thing, he says, because climate change is just so obviously, blindingly real. I think the most important thing for him is to believe that there are a) no coincidences and no creases in our totalitarian universe and b) shady men and women (mostly men) who hold a power so absolute they are essentially indistinguishable from living gods. It's a theological worldview in many ways, and it feeds off of paranoia and loneliness, both of which he has always suffered from to varying degrees.

anvil, I do wonder what this approach ends up doing tho. I understand it allows you to keep cordial relations with the brainwormed and to report back your findings here, but has it helped assuage the brainworms in any way?

Each person is different, and once someone is brainwormed probably not (or more accurately, once they think of you as an opponent in some way its most likely too late). Some parallels with cults, the in/out group, the oppositional way of thinking "well you would say that wouldn't you?". In my case my approach changed, but I imagine too late

Lot of talk here about changes coming out of the blue, but maybe its less out of the blue than it might appear

The absence of a controlling church has imo been a fertile ground for whatever else scutter someone will sell to you to shut yr head up

Speaking as a Romanian… let's just say that there are plenty of counter-examples.

Hopefully treating people with some level of respect, even when they're spouting complete bollocks, gives them the opportunity to feel they have something to go back to if they do start becoming disillusioned with their beliefs.

That's basically all you can do, yeah. And it's not enough by any yardstick.

Why do yall do this to yourselves? Brain wormed people don’t care about you. They’re not your friends, and blood isn’t thicker than water. Go find people who aren’t Nazis to associate with.

That's the spirit.

Like, I suspect my dad harbors some conservative beliefs, but he has the good sense to keep them to himself. And he’s damn right to do so, because if he ever “came out” as a trumper he’d never hear from me again.

Just making sure everyone's seen this and knows about it. I know it's Reddit but this is strictly-moderarated and full of much good sane, calm, rational, sensible advice. Some from people who have succesfully de-programmed people and such. Plus, goes without saying, a lot of 'WTF do i do i'm worried right now' stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/

I have successfully managed to avoid finding out what 'QAnon' is (idk how you even say it?). I assumed it was something to do with the paedo pizza basement shite that wasn't even worth expending any brain cells on. Should I google 'what is qanon'? Will I see the light?

I don't know what it is either! I reckon it's the stuff that you used to see in USA tabloids, like lizard men & bat boys & probably celebrities involved in death cults. & probably Christians against rock & roll stuff, like in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vylqX6sevqo

The article that DJI linked yesterday is long, but goes into pretty good detail about what qanon is and how it functions.

That subreddit is full of really harrowing posts—people descending into obsession, alienating their wives, their kids. It seems like people are desperate to lose themselves in a fantasy world.

wait so basically thousands of people believed shitposts on 4chan?

yes but hundreds of thousands of mostly old people

3 years ago??? What's happened to time?

it was erased by Bill Gates iirc

Is it really not known who is behind this?

Harry Styles was behind the last ~mysterious~ online thing I looked into...

I don’t think my man is behind this one

I heard it was the founder of 8chan. Whoever is driving these “breadcrumbs” is evil, as is Alex Jones. It’s destroying lives.

Are they still doing it? Can anyone join in or does 'the community' only believe a/some specific accounts?

I think the original Q is still posting through a verified account on 8chan. And there is a broader network of pages and videos and things around it.

That Medium article is great, thanks DJI!

You're welcome. It's crazy how even just looking at the collages of people making innocent hand signs (in an essay about Apophenia!) made something in my head go "is this really a coincidence?"

yes but hundreds of thousands of mostly old people

I know that we've come to think of it this way but I fear it's not true, there are dummies every age all over this

Why is society producing so many people who are willing to throw their lives away for a fantasy? And not even an appealing one?

I said my take on a conspiracy theory thread: alienation and feelings of powerlessness and paranoia (experts, govt, trad media can't be trusted) brought on by living in an incredibly complex modern world

Why is society producing so many people who are willing to throw their lives away for a fantasy? And not even an appealing one?

Ever heard of religion?

Why is society producing so many people who are willing to throw their lives away for a fantasy?

I think you are misdiagnosing the source of the problem; it's not so much that these people were raised wrong or mis-educated by society. Far more of the blame lies with the people who understand exactly what they are promulgating and the means by which they are doing it, through constant lies and emotional manipulation, preying on the weaknesses that reside in all of us. They are amoral lizards, actuated only by the desire for power, money and control. They laugh at their dupes as much as we sometimes do, then continue to destroy the world for their own petty gain. Blame them, not their handy fools.

so you blame the lizard people?

People like alex jones are certainly predators, exploiters, but they seem to have many willing “marks.” It does seem like people are adrift from their local communities and workplaces and too plugged into national and global issues, which are overwhelming, and looking for personal meaning there — that seems to be a part of it.

Also maybe a lack of interest in being an ordinary, hardworking and ethical person. In the US, that isn’t valued enough. People thirst for glamor and following Q breadcrumbs seems to give that to them.

I think the original Q is still posting through a verified account on 8chan. And there is a broader network of pages and videos and things around it.

― treeship., Tuesday, January 12, 2021 10:39 AM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

a guy bought 8chan from its founder, he is a sexpat pornographer who lives in southeast asia, it is believed that he is Q (although he may not have been the original Q)

Makes sense that Q would be a pedophile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Watkins_(businessman)

this is him