Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

if only people still made poo poo and pee pee

Loool!

Bitches Brew doesn't have some dickhead doing silly comedy voices over the top of it so dated or not it's a lot more listenable

the datedness of Zappa I think has a lot to do with the expectation that listeners approach his music as if he's saying something more profound than whatever he's parodying or pastiching was supposed to have been saying, something that exposes those things in some way- and not only that but he's saying something more profound than he seems to be saying on his own terms when he's being (apparently) wilfully gross/annoying/reactionary- and that it's self evident that this is how his work deserves to be appreciated, if at all. he was always going to be a minority taste but whatever combination of factors created that kind of cult around him doesn't really exist anymore for a lot of complicated reasons

Idk if I see datedness as the issue. Christgau was p much making the same criticisms that are being made on this thread in the early 70s: https://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Frank+Zappa. And lots of people still listen to Zappa - he has 1.1M monthly listeners on Spotify, more than King Crimson, a little under Primus, about 10x what Mahavishnu have, almost 3x Captain Beefheart's.

*Mahavishnu Orchestra

tbh I mostly dislike Zappa bc he's not PC enough, everything else is secondary. claims about datedness in that respect are probably wishful thinking. how many supporters does Trump still have?

jfc why primus though

Actually, this works better than the other Christgau link: https://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist2.php?id=4155

Zappa isn't "dated," per se, any more than anything else is. It's just dumb. If any of his his "some dickhead doing silly comedy voices over the top of it" shtick was actually smart or funny it wouldn't matter. You put that "some dickhead doing silly comedy voices over the top of it" on literally any music of the era, from the Beatles to the Band to, sure, "Bitches Brew," it would be just as bad. At least Les Claypool sort of mutters his bullshit low enough that you can often ignore it. If Zappa's bullshit weren't so foregrounded you could maybe ignore it, too, and then all the nerds would be, like, "if you listen closely you can hear Zappa subverting the sophisticated paradigm of modern composition by orchestrating pitched belches and fart sounds." But Zappa, being contemptuous of any and all things except his own abilities, has no use for subtlety.

was surprised to come across this randomly the other day, The Sonics covering Zappa in 1967

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thHAy4jmtdU

I played through a lot of the playlist upthread of the better instrumental-ish material, and I can now conclude that I just don't like FZ. Can't knock the talent involved in making it, but his compositional style just gets on my nerves and I think other people took some of his ideas to more interesting places (Faust, Henry Cow etc). However, huge thanks to whoever it was that put the playlist together so I could reach this conclusion without trawling through 75 albums of penis jokes to get to the relevant tracks.

(xp) Great find!

trawling through 75 albums of penis jokes to get to the relevant tracks.

You are such a square, you just don't get it, maaaaaaaan.

I did eventually finish the doc. The only time you see him happy is when he's being hailed a hero in Czechoslovakia (Prague Rock!) and later when he's dying and doing iirc The Yellow Shark. The remainder of what I missed was him complaining about the record industry, how no one gets him, and how his free speech views got him blacklisted from ... what, 75 more albums of penis jokes?

that was my playlist matt and i'm glad it helped!

i do not really think about zappa's compositional style i just really love jazz fusion

well i guess he forces me to think about it during the mathier sections of roxy

Probably spoken of upthread somewhere but what are the key recordings of his orchestral music? I'm willing to give it a try!

London Symphony Orchestra
The Yellow Shark
200 Motels

I like Orchestral Favorites, or did when I listened to more Zappa. It's a smaller chamber orchestra meets rock band configuration, so there's bits of synth and electric violin. Contains a version of "Duke of Prunes" and several themes from 200 Motels.

lmao nailed it

Heidecker Does Zappa (from Office Hours After Hours 12/3) @timheidecker @douggpound @VicBergerIV @OfficeHrsLive pic.twitter.com/wY1rJg6v3Z

— Dan Cupps (@DanielCupps) February 1, 2021

hahaha

can't hold a candle to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPK35hChAk

Which iirc really pissed Frank off, which just proves that like most bullies he can dish it out but can't take it

That’s amazing, thanks

damn that's a bit too on the nose

have we done this one already?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwFf9vGRqcs

so the problem with that one is it's actually too fun to be a real Zappa tune

Gives me an excuse to post this yet again: http://www.globalbass.com/archives/dec2001/stephen_jay.htm

this is making my morning...though I guess Weird Al (not surprisingly) was a huge Zappa fan and it was more of a loving tribute

[11]. Do you have anybody’s autograph?

WAY: I’m not a big autograph collector, but when I was working in the mailroom in the early ’80s back at Westwood One, Dr. Demento would have special guests coming in every night. And one time, Frank Zappa came in, and he’s one of my all-time heroes. So I brought up my tattered copy of Freak Out!, which I probably bought for 99 cents at a used record store. And it kind of blew my mind, because he was like, “Oh, you’re the ‘Another One Rides The Bus’ guy! My son Dweezil likes that song. Can I get an autograph for him?” Dweezil was like 13 years old at the time, but I couldn’t even believe that Frank Zappa knew who I was, let alone asking for my autograph, so that was a huge deal for me. And that Freak Out! album, since, has gotten severely water damaged so I can’t even bear to throw it away. So for the rest of my life, I will hold on to this slimy, moldy piece of cardboard with Frank Zappa’s name on it.

AVC: Have you met Dweezil since?

WAY: Dweezil actually played on a song of mine called, “Genius In France,” which is my homage to Frank Zappa. I figured if Dweezil played on it that would give it a little more credibility. He was amazing; he did this amazing guitar solo at the top of the song, so it was a thrill to work with Dweezil on that.

Jim Cox that is pretty brutal, amazing

I'm most impressed by how well he was able to nail a very particular Zappa guitar tone! I'm a Zappa fan but I could have been legitimately fooled by that bit into thinking it was the man himself

I don't think I've laughed harder at anything in months than that Jim Cox song, it's so perfect. Thanks for posting.

this is making my morning...though I guess Weird Al (not surprisingly) was a huge Zappa fan and it was more of a loving tribute

well yeah, I can't imagine Weird Al ever doing a mean-spirited parody of anything

listened to the Jim Cox one 3x now, it really does perfectly capture how obnoxious pretty much everything he did after 1969 is

Even the Jim Cox one seems detailed and accurate enough to be loving imo. The Heidecker is kind of funny because it comes off like he just made some shit up on the spot and got the general gist of it.

there are some forbidden V-I progressions just after 6:30 in that Weird Al tune

The Heidecker is kind of funny because it comes off like he just made some shit up on the spot and got the general gist of it.

― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:17 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

he does have a gift for it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfG8nEhNMhk

Cox nails Flo & Eddie's whiny spoken word, the Central Scrutinizer whispers, the insane tempo change when the lyric mentions "ballet," the doo-wop parody... So much attention to detail. I think my favorite part is the George Duke-like "ooma-gooma-ohh-yeahhhh" about two minutes in.

In case you missed some of the lyrics:
https://www.united-mutations.com/c/jim_cox.htm

Iirc, one of Weird Al's longtime band members was a huge Zappa guy. The bassist? Yes, the bassist, Stephen Jay:

One night back in Tampa, Frank Zappa and Steve Vai happened to walk in and heard a band I was playing with at a big disco club called Robiconti’s. After our show, Frank told me it was the best sounding band he’d ever heard! A few weeks later, he called me and said he needed a bass player and asked me to come to L.A. I didn’t get the gig, but it got me and my family out to L.A. and for that I am eternally grateful. My audition with Frank turned out to be a “Black Page” sightreading.

lol already posted! Sorry

That's the nice version of that story.

okay, that cox song is a hoot

I am listening to "The Yellow Shark" for the first time and it is... totally enjoyable

As far as later stuff goes, Civilization Phase 3 is also very good.

It's next on my playlist, I heard the same thing

I still don't like the "zany" but compositionally I think this is frankly rather zappa

So the documentary was supposed to go live to various Kickstarter backers today as a digital download. If you read down for today's comments, you'll notice that things...aren't.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alexwinter/frank-zappa/comments

Central Scrutinizer whispers *I told you so*

The doc was really good!

Ugh, even a well received doc ends up being a shitshow for Zappa fans. Seems like nothing comes easy for Zappa's legacy.

Well, he completely rejected the idea of even having a legacy or being remembered at all, so it's cool.

I like that the documentary didn’t outright but still clearly state “this guy is an asshole.”