Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Fripp was a gigging jazz player originally iirc?

Most, if not all of the later musicians in Soft Machine, were from jazz.

Later, as in post Soft Machine 2.

Jan Akkerman of Focus ended up doing seriously dullsville funky fusion records after he left the band.

Most prog musicians weren't great players though compared to the fusion guys

Allan Holdsworth is like the guiding light of a certain jazz guitar group on social media that Sund4r and I are members of.

All those Soft Machine guys kept playing music, I'd say they probably are known in some UK jazz circles. Colosseum and the long running group Nucleus are both early prog/fusion UK bands that seem to also be tied into similar scenes and musicians of the day.

Holdsworth's playing really irritates me for the most part, at least his solo stuff
always tried to get into it but can't also can't express what i dislike about it

Not prog, but there's Jerry Garcia playing on Ornette's Virgin Beauty.

Tbh, it's asking a lot for someone to achieve a world-class level of accomplishment in two different idioms.

I heard a Soft Machine album with Holdsworth that I liked, but nothing he did solo has ever registered with me.

Holdsworth was pretty nuts, as a fusion guy. That Secrets album (with Vinnie ...) is bonkers, though yeah, I can only listen to it in a "listen to how insane this is" sort of way.
I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRuyujLSkxo

The breakdown of what is going on here (or not going on; it's in 4/4!) is also nuts:

http://threadoflunacy.blogspot.com/p/gary-husband-on-city-nights-from-secrets.html

Speaking of Soft Machine, I guess Andy Summers has dabbled in jazz and fusion.

holdsworth makes me feel squirmy inside

so does jeff beck anytime i see him play now...like i dunno, they are so wiggly and almost committed to not playing the "obvious" melody notes that they feel like they are just squiggling around in some kinda modal scale mud wrestling pit

ppl wd flail less in their grasp of the intertwined natures of fusion and prog if they only read the introduction to my book, which very expertly explains why the music was called "progressive" at all, and what progressive meant in both musical and countercutlural terms :D

the key figure is of course hendrix -- who died too soon to be swept up into either as a marketed narrowed or congealed genre, though he's clearly a force driving both. if he'd lived just another three four years he'd surely have played with miles, and then what would the music be called?

with Vinnie
That reminds me of another guy in that group I mentioned, Vinnie Zummo. Played with Joe Jackson and did session work with other artists, does his own jazz thing now that seems to be legit. But yeah, Sund4r otm.

that squirminess is the beginning of love, ums, you shd pursue it and not run away

This one is pretty wicked. My first guitar teacher way back in the mid-80s was a big fusion guitarist and made me tapes of a bunch of stuff. It was and to a point still is way over my head, but it opened my ears to some different sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLukR6J-06o

Holdsworth is definitely one of those players that had some pretty legendary guitarists going "how the fxxx does he do that".

oh yeah i mean i subscribed to guitar for the practicing musician and guitar mag so i was indoctrinated that he was a big deal

the best (and i mean worst) part of that first allan holdsworth clip "city nights" is the sound of someone pouring a drink at the end of it.

Form the thing I linked to:

City Nights is in 4/4 from the beginning of the song, throughout the whole song right through to the end. It’s only the sound of the beer bottle opening at the very end that’s not in 4/4!

Man, Chad Wackerman is just one of those drummers I can never get into at all.

I like holdsworth a lot, love his solo on Jean luv Ponty’s “nostalgia, but a lot of his albums have turned me off. IOU is really good, though.

I know we're not supposed to speak ill of Neil Peart, but I experienced that motherfucker trying to swing during a drum solo on Rush's 2011 tour and...oof.

That first UK (band) (Holdsworth, Bruford w/ Eddie Jobson and John Wetton) record definitely gets into some similar areas to the Belew version of Crimson. I think '78 was a particularly bad year to have your new prog supergroup try to break out.

Peart apparently improvised his playing during the guitar solo (his stuff is usually pretty worked out, as one might expect), and has said he just got lucky landing back on the "1." But he is definitely not a swingy kind of drummer. Neither is Bruford, for that matter, and he actually was the leader of a couple of jazz combos.

Phil Collins could totally swing, though. Brand X rocks.

Allan Holdsworth and Ollie Halsall overlapped in Tempest for a while and it seems like the latter influenced the former fwiw, although most Holdsworth-heads don't seem to dig quite that deep.

I think that synth/axe instrument that both Holdsworth and to a lesser extent McLaughlin got using don't really sound that good (at least to me). Metheny does some pretty cool stuff with the Roland one he used, that solo on "Are You Going My Way" is one of my all time favorites both the studio and the live version.

Holdsworth does have some rep with some metal guitarists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkEzUOBj434

Wasn't he signed on Eddie Van Halen's recommendation?

I listened to that "City Nights" clip and within the first 15 seconds I was thinking, yep, this is exactly the kind of thing I hate. Not just the squiggly eruption, but the two note riff that starts the thing — so many fusion jagoffs (and Zappa!) use exactly that kind of two note riff to start shit off and it just immediately punctures any joy I might potentially feel. And btw "joyless" is exactly how I'd describe Holdsworth's playing, if I had to choose just one word.

wow damn I get feverish ecstasy when he’s at his best

I got a negative impression of him from Bruford's autobiography, where he stormed out of the studio after being asked to overdub some rhythm guitar on Feels Good to Me. Apparently this conflicted with his self-image as a LEAD, not rhythm player.

fwiw I saw Holdsworth play in a small venue in the late '80s on a bill with Ronnie Montrose. Maybe I had young untrained ears, but I could not relate to what Holdsworth was doing at all, whereas Ronnie Montrose was amazing, perhaps the best guitarist I've ever seen. If memory serves, Holdsworth was mainly doing a layered chordal kind of thing rather than lead at that time.

I still find it kinda crazy that Steve Morse has been Deep Purple's guitarist for 26 years now.

Some of these chops monster mutants, there's just no right place for them. I think it's the lucky ones that can adapt to gigs like that or session work. The real weirdos, like Bozzio or Vai, are ultimately stuck being their own strange selves and making the most of it.

I was thinking that one reason why fusion got so sucky in the '80s is that everything was just too much: the playing, the fashion, the tones, the studio choices made, the synths (digital synths, plus synth drums, plus synth axe). Everything sounded too bright and slick and gross. Even the best stuff in the '80s, like John Scofield (another Miles vet!), sounded pretty bad, despite the awesome playing. Hence the shift to "fuzak," when the playing got so good the only challenge left was to make it utterly invisible.

this kind of bafflement (wtf are the fans getting out of this, how can i coax them into pining it down in a non-handwavy way?) is precisely what also sends me back to zappa and fripp tbrr: "i don't get it" = "so there's things i can learn from it (which may never include love)"

cross-genre dismissiveness is of course a perfectly normal punter response -- all of us have reaches of music that rankle -- but it's never a satisfactory critical response

(caveat: no one can be a satisfactory critic of everything, i'm not even sure what this could mean)

w/holdsworth what i probably mainly like is memories of time spent trying as an unrepentent early-gong fan to make sense of gazeuse in the late 70s -- if the (stupid term klaxon) post-punk impulse at that time wz opening yr mind to soundwork way outside yr usual ambit, well, this too was way outside my usual ambit so my task wz clear

I have an ex-friend who was a very well known guitar journalist, who interviewed Zappa (who said if my friend represented the future of music journalism —which he most assuredly did not— he would have to start respecting the profession) and almost every living elite guitar player from 1988 onwards, and who furthermore became friends, like peer-level friends, to like 75% of the elite guitar fraternity… he produced and recorded music with like five of these guys over the past 25 years. It is a dream come true for him, as it would be for tens of thousands of people, to be intimate friends with your heroes.

Yet he doesn't get along very well with anyone who isn't an elite chops musician, and doesn't particularly care about anyone as such. I bring him up because he is livid, like Trump supporter angry, that chops music was dethroned in the 90s. He is viscerally bitter at the injustice that not only is the music that his friends/heroes have done in the past 40 years is sneered at and that their new music is dismissed out of hand and is only prized by chops dead-enders, but that seemingly these men do not have special rights and privileges, that their achievements should afford them deference above other humans.

Did he not gravitate to prog metal? I thought that's where all the chops chaps ended up.

Andy McKee has videos with 59M views on Youtube.

that was my first thought also… but that wing of metal just buzzes with a fvckton of other potential social markers -- inc.the fact that a lot of it is p comfortably self-mockingly funny (which is not a kind of "funny" the various manifestations of music on this thread much intersect with?)

(i mean i can totally see why some ppl still as grown-ups find zappa funny but it rarely speaks to their self-deprecating self-awareness: there's not much omnidirectional levelling involved)

(lol xpost, my first thought was not abt andy mckee's youtube views and never will be)

for instance, he said to me once when we were at a strip club in NYC, which of course was playing hip-hop, pop, and metal that he didn't like, all of which I liked and obviously thought was suitable for hot girls to remove a flimsy garment and get marginally nasty to…

"why can't they dance to Holdsworth?" Swear to god he said that.

Holdsworth tolerated this guy but held him at arm's length relative to other men I mention above. When Holdsworth died somewhat insolvent and his family needed help with the aftermath, I'm sure that this guy, who is wealthy and with whom i have had no contact in many years, helped out quite a bit.

Ha, that's amazing. Did strippers dance to Allan Holdsworth in the 80s?

Thanks, I was after a new screen name!

the only music that real strippers will ever dance to

one time I was in a strip club during the day meeting my roommate and his workmates. it was deserted and the stripper was just sitting on the stage, drinking a Dr. Pepper through a straw and listening to "Silent Lucidity" by Queensryche

Can strippers dance in 13/8 time?

Those deserving of posterity certainly can.

those with deserving posteriors

They are the same ones iirc.