Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

As Lou himself said when accused of being a inept guitarist, "I never said I was ept."

That never gets old.

Lou's '86 band was...not good. And I never understood why an Ornette fanatic like Lou had such a lame-o saxophonist. But his guitar playing could not be fucked with, and that jump-cut in his phrasing is so lovely.

I could see how a Lou fan might quibble with aspects of the solo, but Dweezil was not a Lou fan, and it may have been frustrating: your best-known music at the time is some bland hackwork on the Don Johnson album, and here you have to show a video of someone who doesn't respect the same rules of technical facility.

Yeah. Wonder if Robert Quine - another 50s guy!- ever said anything about Zappa.

Looks like Nuttin' Honey.

Don't know much about Lou Reed's bands, but I looked it up, and that's Eddie Martinez on guitar with him. Now *that* dude had a crazy career.

Indeed

Listening to “Rock Box” right now.

Okay, so even though I enjoyed the guest DJ spot and managed to rustle up a list of a few FZ tunes and albums that I might not project object to so I can keep up the facade of “I’m not really a fan but, hey, I try to keep an open mind” in case I am called upon to guest DJ one day, ultimately I still find his whole enterprise slightly oppressive and depressing, sorry.

Once again I'll recommend FZ played by chamber ensembles. Remove the asshole from the music and see if you like what's left —
Ensemble Ambrosius — The Zappa Album (fz played on baroque instruments)
Omnibus Wind Ensemble — Music by Frank Zappa
Le Concert Impromptu — Prophetic Attitude (woodwind quintet)

I came across this German HR Big Band from Youtube on a show they did with Jack Bruce that was excellent. Checking out their other work, came across this Zappa piece "We Are Not Alone" done by them that is pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw2tF9oWkIE

You know, speaking of rock, prog and jazz, for all their prowess did any progressive rock musicians move on to jazz or fusion? All I can think of is Phil Collins and Bill Bruford.

I know we're not supposed to speak ill of Neil Peart, but I experienced that motherfucker trying to swing during a drum solo on Rush's 2011 tour and...oof.

Yeah, he kind of hobbied as a jazz guy, but never really did any jazz or fusion. I guess he does play a song or two on this one Jeff Berlin album.

Jack Bruce was playing jazz before Cream, but seems pretty legit in the jazz world afterwards playing with Tony Williams and touring with Billy Cobham etc.

Allan Holdsworth definitely crossed into fusion, although he was already there playing with Soft Machine etc.

Soft Machine as a whole became a fusion group, but I don't know how they're rated by jazz fans/critics. I suspect they're seen as "good for a rock group".

Nels Cline, maybe.

Robert Wyatt is on the new Mary Halvorson album!

And Allan Holdsworth is respected.

Oh xps

Fripp was a gigging jazz player originally iirc?

Most, if not all of the later musicians in Soft Machine, were from jazz.

Later, as in post Soft Machine 2.

Jan Akkerman of Focus ended up doing seriously dullsville funky fusion records after he left the band.

Most prog musicians weren't great players though compared to the fusion guys

Allan Holdsworth is like the guiding light of a certain jazz guitar group on social media that Sund4r and I are members of.

All those Soft Machine guys kept playing music, I'd say they probably are known in some UK jazz circles. Colosseum and the long running group Nucleus are both early prog/fusion UK bands that seem to also be tied into similar scenes and musicians of the day.

Holdsworth's playing really irritates me for the most part, at least his solo stuff
always tried to get into it but can't also can't express what i dislike about it

Not prog, but there's Jerry Garcia playing on Ornette's Virgin Beauty.

Tbh, it's asking a lot for someone to achieve a world-class level of accomplishment in two different idioms.

I heard a Soft Machine album with Holdsworth that I liked, but nothing he did solo has ever registered with me.

Holdsworth was pretty nuts, as a fusion guy. That Secrets album (with Vinnie ...) is bonkers, though yeah, I can only listen to it in a "listen to how insane this is" sort of way.
I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRuyujLSkxo

The breakdown of what is going on here (or not going on; it's in 4/4!) is also nuts:

http://threadoflunacy.blogspot.com/p/gary-husband-on-city-nights-from-secrets.html

Speaking of Soft Machine, I guess Andy Summers has dabbled in jazz and fusion.

holdsworth makes me feel squirmy inside

so does jeff beck anytime i see him play now...like i dunno, they are so wiggly and almost committed to not playing the "obvious" melody notes that they feel like they are just squiggling around in some kinda modal scale mud wrestling pit

ppl wd flail less in their grasp of the intertwined natures of fusion and prog if they only read the introduction to my book, which very expertly explains why the music was called "progressive" at all, and what progressive meant in both musical and countercutlural terms :D

the key figure is of course hendrix -- who died too soon to be swept up into either as a marketed narrowed or congealed genre, though he's clearly a force driving both. if he'd lived just another three four years he'd surely have played with miles, and then what would the music be called?

with Vinnie
That reminds me of another guy in that group I mentioned, Vinnie Zummo. Played with Joe Jackson and did session work with other artists, does his own jazz thing now that seems to be legit. But yeah, Sund4r otm.

that squirminess is the beginning of love, ums, you shd pursue it and not run away

This one is pretty wicked. My first guitar teacher way back in the mid-80s was a big fusion guitarist and made me tapes of a bunch of stuff. It was and to a point still is way over my head, but it opened my ears to some different sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLukR6J-06o

Holdsworth is definitely one of those players that had some pretty legendary guitarists going "how the fxxx does he do that".

oh yeah i mean i subscribed to guitar for the practicing musician and guitar mag so i was indoctrinated that he was a big deal

the best (and i mean worst) part of that first allan holdsworth clip "city nights" is the sound of someone pouring a drink at the end of it.

Form the thing I linked to:

City Nights is in 4/4 from the beginning of the song, throughout the whole song right through to the end. It’s only the sound of the beer bottle opening at the very end that’s not in 4/4!

Man, Chad Wackerman is just one of those drummers I can never get into at all.

I like holdsworth a lot, love his solo on Jean luv Ponty’s “nostalgia, but a lot of his albums have turned me off. IOU is really good, though.

I know we're not supposed to speak ill of Neil Peart, but I experienced that motherfucker trying to swing during a drum solo on Rush's 2011 tour and...oof.

That first UK (band) (Holdsworth, Bruford w/ Eddie Jobson and John Wetton) record definitely gets into some similar areas to the Belew version of Crimson. I think '78 was a particularly bad year to have your new prog supergroup try to break out.

Peart apparently improvised his playing during the guitar solo (his stuff is usually pretty worked out, as one might expect), and has said he just got lucky landing back on the "1." But he is definitely not a swingy kind of drummer. Neither is Bruford, for that matter, and he actually was the leader of a couple of jazz combos.

Phil Collins could totally swing, though. Brand X rocks.

Allan Holdsworth and Ollie Halsall overlapped in Tempest for a while and it seems like the latter influenced the former fwiw, although most Holdsworth-heads don't seem to dig quite that deep.

I think that synth/axe instrument that both Holdsworth and to a lesser extent McLaughlin got using don't really sound that good (at least to me). Metheny does some pretty cool stuff with the Roland one he used, that solo on "Are You Going My Way" is one of my all time favorites both the studio and the live version.

Holdsworth does have some rep with some metal guitarists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkEzUOBj434

Wasn't he signed on Eddie Van Halen's recommendation?

I listened to that "City Nights" clip and within the first 15 seconds I was thinking, yep, this is exactly the kind of thing I hate. Not just the squiggly eruption, but the two note riff that starts the thing — so many fusion jagoffs (and Zappa!) use exactly that kind of two note riff to start shit off and it just immediately punctures any joy I might potentially feel. And btw "joyless" is exactly how I'd describe Holdsworth's playing, if I had to choose just one word.