Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Yes, that is how is I always thought about it, those last two sentences.

I never knew about this: https://www.altaonline.com/dispatches/a4456/miss-christine-rock-legend/

Just found this reference to the HOF induction: Zappa - C/D

todd is to me the corrected version of zapps: when he does a genre parody, like "wolfman Jack" or "you cried wolf," it's "i love this music, even if its teenage and corny, and i'm going to put my heart into it." for many year's I've thought that zappa/mothers are to clinton/p funk as todd is to Stevie W.

there can be little doubt that zappa strongly disliked lou reed and his milieu, and I strongly doubt that Vaclav Havel succeeded in changing his mind; and it could only be that Jon Landau or somebody similar convinced miserable old Lou that it would be in his benefit to say "I liked Frank and I know he liked me" at the induction. Dweezil —who while VJing on MTV described Lou's solo on "Video Violence," off of Mistrial, which I've never heard beyond "The Original Rapper," is the worst guitar solos in the history of anything— strongly denied that his dad had any use for Reed.

The whole thing re: Dweezil vs Ahmet is fascinating, and is rooted in Gail's domineering stewardship. Within Zappa fandom, I believe no one is more polarizing than she.

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xpost: Dweezil said "Video Violence" featured the worst guitar solos in the history of anything.

Zappa picked All Tomorrow's Parties as one of his 30 favorite songs in the history of music upthread so he must have appreciated Lou somewhat

"Venus In Furs", I think? Yes, I can't imagine Lou would ever have returned the favour.

No, you're right it was "All Tomorrow's Parties", completely with Lou's raga lead guitar.

Maybe he just felt bad about an incident mentioned here and wanted to make up for it: https://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2013/10/the-wild-side-lou-reed-vs-frank-zappa.html

when he does a genre parody, like "wolfman Jack" or "you cried wolf," it's "i love this music
Wanted to say the same thing about Weird Al, who was mentioned upthread.

xp is there even a solo on "Video Violence"...isn't the whole thing Lou w/ careening lead under all tha nah-nah-nah's

The incident being

In between sets, Frank Zappa got up from his seat and walked up on the stage and sat behind the keyboard of Nico's B-3 organ. He proceeded to place his hands indiscriminately on the keyboard in a total, atonal fashion and screamed at the top of his lungs, doing a caricature of Nico's set, the one he had just seen. The words to his impromptu song were the names of vegetables like broccolli, cabbage, asparagus... This 'song' kept going for about a minute or so and then suddenly stopped. He walked off the stage and the show moved on. It was one of the greatest pieces of rock 'n roll theatre that I have ever seen."

New York had the Fugs, so I'm sure the Mothers didn't come as any great cultural shock to New Yorkers.

The Velvets didn't take kindly to the insult and Reed returned the favour. "Zappa is the single most untalented person I heard in my life," he sneered. ""He's a two-bit, pretentious academic, and he can't play rock 'n' roll, because he's a loser. And that's why he dresses funny. He's not happy with himself and I think he's right."

https://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2013/10/the-wild-side-lou-reed-vs-frank-zappa.html

oh ha xp

It was one of the greatest pieces of rock 'n roll theatre that I have ever seen."


jackoffmotion.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mXIL_LKvvI

Guy who wrote that long article also wrote 33 1⁄3 book on Trout Mask Replica that some people seem to like.

Reed calling Zappa a pretentious academic is tbh ludicrous considering it was Reed and not Zappa who got a formal university education and Reed's documented poetic aspirations are not more intrinsically rock'n'roll than Zappa's compositional aspirations.

One interesting fact that seems to have thus far gone unnoted is Zappa’s go-to Sabbath song changing from “Supernaut” to “Iron Man.”

dweezil's comment on the guitar in video violence suggests he doesn't really get how the songs works and what the guitar is doing in it?

tho when it gets scribbly (just before the five minute mark) it's maybe a wee bit more phoned-in and perfunctory than reed scribble is elsewhere? but calling this out as "worst" suggests someone paying very close attention to reed guitar-scribble down the years lol

on the whole i don't feel either camp was very good at insults

I dunno, think that Nico was pretty good at it at least.

Velvets had a higher percentage of members with far right political opinions, as far as I'm aware, so FZ wins on that score.

Now thinking about one of my favorite topics, Tom Wilson, and how he was kind of a house producer at Columbia, producing “Like a Rolling Stone” and overdubbing “The Sound of Silence” right before he left (or got fired from?) the label and ended up at Verve/MGM with The Mothers and Velvets (along with producing The Animals).

and the mothers had roy estrada xp

This is the Lou "Video Violence" clip in question. MTV showed this concert live (which also featured Miles Davis, U2, Peter Gabriel, Santana -- with Fela! -- the Police, and Joni Mitchell), but also ran this Lou excerpt in medium rotation during the following weeks. I saw Dweezil say it was the worst solo ever and thought, "what?! The guitarist on the Don Johnson record hates this solo?!"

solo starts at 4:03, and it's fucking beautiful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7HGosUNALI

the Mothers had a high percentage of child molesters

"Gerry Hologram" followed by "Sweet Home Alabama" is hilarious

Yeah, thought so too.

Now thinking about one of my favorite topics, Tom Wilson, and how he was kind of a house producer at Columbia, producing “Like a Rolling Stone” and overdubbing “The Sound of Silence” right before he left (or got fired from?) the label and ended up at Verve/MGM with The Mothers and Velvets (along with producing The Animals).

― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, December 22, 2020 11:27 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

And prior to his tenure at Columbia, he produced the debut albums of Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra.

ah right, *that* video-violence scribble isn't phoned in at all lol

Not the biggest fan of that phase of Lou’s career, tbh. And the way he jump-cuts from the long sustained notes right to the fast atonal skronk up the neck, maybe Dweezil has a point.

As Lou himself said when accused of being a inept guitarist, "I never said I was ept."

That never gets old.

Lou's '86 band was...not good. And I never understood why an Ornette fanatic like Lou had such a lame-o saxophonist. But his guitar playing could not be fucked with, and that jump-cut in his phrasing is so lovely.

I could see how a Lou fan might quibble with aspects of the solo, but Dweezil was not a Lou fan, and it may have been frustrating: your best-known music at the time is some bland hackwork on the Don Johnson album, and here you have to show a video of someone who doesn't respect the same rules of technical facility.

Yeah. Wonder if Robert Quine - another 50s guy!- ever said anything about Zappa.

Looks like Nuttin' Honey.

Don't know much about Lou Reed's bands, but I looked it up, and that's Eddie Martinez on guitar with him. Now *that* dude had a crazy career.

Indeed

Listening to “Rock Box” right now.

Okay, so even though I enjoyed the guest DJ spot and managed to rustle up a list of a few FZ tunes and albums that I might not project object to so I can keep up the facade of “I’m not really a fan but, hey, I try to keep an open mind” in case I am called upon to guest DJ one day, ultimately I still find his whole enterprise slightly oppressive and depressing, sorry.

Once again I'll recommend FZ played by chamber ensembles. Remove the asshole from the music and see if you like what's left —
Ensemble Ambrosius — The Zappa Album (fz played on baroque instruments)
Omnibus Wind Ensemble — Music by Frank Zappa
Le Concert Impromptu — Prophetic Attitude (woodwind quintet)

I came across this German HR Big Band from Youtube on a show they did with Jack Bruce that was excellent. Checking out their other work, came across this Zappa piece "We Are Not Alone" done by them that is pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw2tF9oWkIE

You know, speaking of rock, prog and jazz, for all their prowess did any progressive rock musicians move on to jazz or fusion? All I can think of is Phil Collins and Bill Bruford.

I know we're not supposed to speak ill of Neil Peart, but I experienced that motherfucker trying to swing during a drum solo on Rush's 2011 tour and...oof.

Yeah, he kind of hobbied as a jazz guy, but never really did any jazz or fusion. I guess he does play a song or two on this one Jeff Berlin album.

Jack Bruce was playing jazz before Cream, but seems pretty legit in the jazz world afterwards playing with Tony Williams and touring with Billy Cobham etc.

Allan Holdsworth definitely crossed into fusion, although he was already there playing with Soft Machine etc.

Soft Machine as a whole became a fusion group, but I don't know how they're rated by jazz fans/critics. I suspect they're seen as "good for a rock group".

Nels Cline, maybe.

Robert Wyatt is on the new Mary Halvorson album!