Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Renaissance were from America

xpost So, basically how someone like Tony Banks probably thinks of themselves.

All five of the musicians on their debut are described as English by Wikipedia. I know the two members from the Yardbirds were.

Renaissance weren't American!

Noodly gearhead musos in the States in the 70s tended to end up playing fusion not prog, I think?

"Jelly Roll Gum Drop", that's another good Zappa song!

Yes, that's a keeper too.

Ah you’re right, Renaissance are currently in America but definitely didn’t start there

There are definitely some pretty good US prog bands but not during Zappa’s time...I agree that Rundgren was probably the closest that wasn’t a straight knock off

Renaissance, like Foghat, were one of those rare UK bands that meant a lot more in the States than their homeland, so people think they're American.
No idea what Zappa thought of Genesis/ELP etc, was it discussed upthread? I'd imagine he despised prog the same way he seemed to despise everything that wasn't written by him or Varèse.

There's some months when you're not gonna find good Zappa songs as much as other months. There's some months when you're gonna find a lot of good FZ songs, and if you average it out, you do find more than two good songs a month

(xp) Hey, he liked Johnny 'Guitar' Watson too.

A lot of the fusion bands of the '70s have their roots in jazz, though, or at least a lot of the times Miles specifically: Mahavishnu, Weather Report, Return to Forever, Lifetime, etc. They kind of bypassed rock entirely. Iirc folks like Larry Carlton claimed to have literally no knowledge of or affinity for rock music. The British prog stuff, those dudes all came from a conventional rock background, by and large, afaict, fwiw.

I remember reading somewhere that he liked the German prog trio Schicke Führs Fröhling.

I assume Zappa hated prog, if he was familiar with it at all. But to my knowledge he never outright parodied it, which is fine, because even the best prog bands often did a fine job doing that themselves!

He could never write something as amazing and on point as Karn Evil 9 if that’s what you’re getting at

He liked Brian May's guitar playing, if that's any use.

Or maybe his sound.

There's some months when you're not gonna find good Zappa songs as much as other months. There's some months when you're gonna find a lot of good FZ songs, and if you average it out, you do find more than two good songs a month

He liked Brian May's guitar playing, if that's any use.

Surprised Queen haven't gone the hologram tour route a la FZ, or maybe they did and I missed it. Once you've decided to flush your legacy down the bog there's no end to it, may as well go the whole hog.

Frank Zappa’s 30 favourite songs as played on BBC RADIO 1 in 1980:

‘I’m In The Music Business’ – Jeff Simmons
‘Straight Lines’ – New Musik
‘The Closer You Are’ – The Channels
‘Hyperprism’ – Edgard Varese
‘Jesus Just Left Chicago’ – ZZ Top
‘Golden Birdies’ – Captain Beefheart
‘I Live In A Car’ – UK Subs
‘Soul Motion’ – Don Harris
‘All Tomorrow’s Parties’ – The Velvet Underground
‘Royal March’ – Igor Stravinsky
‘Iron Man’ – Black Sabbath
‘Lucky Number’ – Lena Lovitch
‘Eureka Springs Garbage Lady’ – GTO’s
‘Killer Queen’ – Queen
‘Mannish Boy’ – Muddy Waters & Johnny Winter
‘Jerry and the Holograms’ – Jerry and the Holograms
‘Sweet Home Alabama’ – Lynyrd Skynyrd
‘Robot’ – Plastics
‘Desiree’ – The Charts
‘I Am The Walrus’ – The Beatles
‘Soldier Soldier’ – Spizz Energy
‘Heaven Is In Your Mind’ – Traffic
‘I’m Working For The Federal Bureau Of Narcotics’ – Wild Man Fischer
‘Paint It Black’ – The Rolling Stones
‘Caravan Man’ – Lew Lewis
‘Psycle Sluts’ – John Cooper Clarke
‘I Asked Her For Water And She Brought Me Gasoline’ – Howlin’ Wolf
‘Summertime Blues’ – The Flying Lizards
‘My White Bicycle’ – Tomorrow
‘Grease’ – Franki Valli

Here's the show: https://www.mixcloud.com/mrsgillespie/frank-zappa-as-dj-at-bbc-radio-1-star-special/

huh.

I didn't know he had such good taste, you'd never guess from his records.

Kind of an interesting and unexpected list

you could have given me 1 million guesses and I'm not sure UK Subs would have passed my lips

.

lol, Tom D.

I knew he'd namechecked the UK Subs before.

I'm most surprised by the Velvet Underground tbh.

First tune has a minor blues turnaround which harmonic cliche I guess was all right with him.

Feel like there was some end-of-the-line sitcom logic by which the Mothers/Velvets Verve/Tom Wilson feud ended up in some sort of diplomatic rapprochement if not an actual bro-hug.

There is that bit in "We're Only In It For the Money" where he gets the engineer on the album Gary Kellgren (supposedly, it sounds like Zappa himself to me) to say something about the Velvet Underground being as shitty as Frank Zappa's group - though it was apparently edited out of the original release.

The rivalry probably seemed less important once The Mothers left NYC

Gary Kellgren having just worked on "White Light/White Heat" I assume.

Reed inducted Frank into the Rock HOF. Very short speech in which he says something like “and I always heard he was a fan of mine too” at the end

LOL that's so Lou. I remember reading an interview with Jimmy Carl Black where he was singing the praises of Mo Tucker.

Wonder if Václav Havel passed the word along to Lou.

Ha, so he was more into the Beatles and VU than I was thinking.

Every once and I while I wonder how Lou was chosen for that induction job. Here’s something on a Zappa borad, but don’t know how much I trust someone who doesn’t know who Doc Pomus is. http://forum.zappa.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13616#p326852

I assume Zappa hated prog, if he was familiar with it at all. But to my knowledge he never outright parodied it, which is fine, because even the best prog bands often did a fine job doing that themselves!

If it counts, he famously did a version of "Stairway to Heaven" with a groove, horns, and sound effects: https://open.spotify.com/track/0YEsQRjRxcUvIJER7Ifob8?si=T4CgLVWMSqaGG09IzXkpGw

The Zappa band was going to tour with King Crimson this year before hell broke loose.

Jon Anderson and Steve Howe big fans of Zappa: https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Yes

Very interesting, thanks. So he liked the B-side of “My White Bicycle”? Starting to warm up to the Cold Mother after all.

2xpost Is that the reggae Stairway to Heaven? I think I had that on a live album I once had. It also had a cover of the theme from Bonanza. Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life or something?

Yes

Yeah, that album. It starts with a quasi-reggae groove but then there's a quasi-big band note-for-note transcription of the guitar solo for brass.xp

Was curious, so I tried to find out what Fripp thought of Zappa, and this was the first forum exchange I saw:

What do you think sets these two apart? What are the main differences in the compositional and instrumental approach?

Fripp is an arrogant asshole, even though he is a good musician...

I mean ...

Just found this from 1978:

Q: Are there any major rock n' roll bands aside from yourself that you do listen to?
ZAPPA: I like Queen. I like Gentle Giant.

On the other hand, I also saw reference to iirc a later interview where he claims to have never heard anything by Fripp or Jimmy Page so who knows.

Acc to this, he apparently played "Black Dog" and "When the Levee Breaks" on the radio in 1974: https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/WSTM,_Chicago

No citation though

This thread has been vociferously trying to convince me that Zappa was too big an asshole, and his music too smug and hateful, to listen to. So out of spite I’m playing You Can’t Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 2 tonight. Except for the improvised skit “Room Service” there’s no misogyny, goofiness is kept to a minimum (for a FZ record), and there’s some seriously blazing playing from everyone in the band.