Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

This Kauffman talk is making me wish there was a vid of Orson Welles' rhapsodizing about "Dong Work For Yuda"

"...this Holy Fool, Bald-Headed John, simultaneously above and below his persecutors..."

There's also a feeling, at his most confrontational or novel, that Kaufman *is* subversive, whereas Zappa ultimately is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHpme0ZeHdU
Merry Christmas!

https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_day_andy_kaufman_mesmerized_dick_van_dyke_with_congas_and_tears

I must have seen him before Dick Van Dyke though, since I stayed up to watch the SNL premiere.

Dick Van Dyke gets it.

The way he would interrupt the show was similar to stuff that would often happen to guest stars on The Muppet Show.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/5/5b/Tonyclifton.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/300?cb=20200418211649

(That's my high concept joke, lol)

god, andy kaufman was so deeply funny and a consummate showman. lol at the idea that frank zappa's thing was even remotely similar -- just a creep who gets off on shitting on other people's enjoyment. zappa's resentment was so transparently a function of self-consciousness about his musical (and other) shortcomings -- and moreover he was so full of shit when he tried to talk about his "ideas" (musical, political, or otherwise) -- that it's embarrassing to witness. i just don't have any time for this guy anymore

I like a lot of Zappa but if it all disappeared I'd really only miss Peaches En Regalia and Trouble Every Day

I think "Any Way the Wind Blows" is the best thing he ever wrote.

budo jeru OTMFM. I’m not a massive Kaufman fan, but I never got even the slightest whiff of Zappa’s “everyone is stupid except me” smug horseshit from Andy’s work.

Does Zappa have any cultural cachet nowadays, other than as some kind of hippie-era relic? He was influencing people up until the 80s/90s (Weird Al, Ween, Primus, Mr Bungle, Butthole Surfers all show some level of similarity), but now? Maybe the whole post-modern/cut-up aesthetic can be traced back to him bringing the concepts into rock/pop music, but that's more like cultural osmosis.

I think he does, I get the feeling people are more open to complex and technical music than they were in the 80s and 90s, hence specific user imago and all his microtonal metal nonsense par example.

The Cardiacs, all that stuff.

Yeah I just think the snarky humour might have dated badly for The Kids. I'll ask my nephew! Mid-20s, Devin Townshend and Steven Wilson fan. His answer shall be taken as gospel.

Zappa absolutely influenced that other ILM nemesis, Ariel Pink.

I'm wondering what the Zappa haters think of bands like Jethro Tull and Devo, who were similarly criticized in contemporary reviews for being contemptuous of their audiences, parodying music that was (supposedly) superior to their own, and general self-satisfaction.

One difference is that Zappa-as-a-person and his public statements loom larger than things that Ian Anderson or Devo said in some interview.

Don't see much of a comparison there, tbh

I think someone who experienced Zappa during the first flush, 1967 to 1971 or thereabouts should weigh in re: the following… it seems he was if not the first but surely among the first and certainly the most prominent figure to proclaim "everything sucks, everyone is corrupt, the mainstream is corny, and even the so called underground is charlatn-y bullshit." this must have been bracing and revelatory in the years I mentioned above, but I and likely most of the people on this thread never knew a time when such a critique was not very nearly a default setting, and thus not particularly revolutionary, bold, etc…

(xp) A lot of early Devo definitely has a similar kind of aggressive nerd vibe as Zappa, it's also very misogynistic.

What's a venn diagram like of people impressed by Zappa contrarian politics/musicianship and people impressed by George Carlin's contrarian politics/comedy?

Did Jethro Tull ever engage in parody? I've always thought of them as v earnest.

I've never thought of Ian Anderson as earnest, didn't Jethro Tull do all sorts of 'comedy' stuff in their live shows?

Anderson also a teetotal anti-drugs control freak I believe?

What's a venn diagram like of people impressed by Zappa contrarian politics/musicianship and people impressed by George Carlin's contrarian politics/comedy?

It's an easy transition from 70s/early 80s Zappa to 80s-and-beyond Carlin (the "Jokes? What are jokes? I'm just gonna shout at you for an hour" years). At least Carlin never did blackface routines.

Ha, yeah, he seems to have intended Thick as a Brick as parody - I never paid attention to the lyrics so never thought about it that way. xps

even the so called underground is charlatn-y bullshit

fwiw, I’ve never known this particular critique to be a “default setting”.... I’m not a Zappa fan, but I think this element of his schtick is somewhat interesting / unusual.

idk devo or jethro tull but I feel similarly tho less strongly about ween, mike patton, naked city era john zorn- who inherited the same kind of sneer. at least they seem to have less contempt for the genres they’re taking off. I feel the same about mashups I’ve heard, or most indie covers of pop. I feel different about some polystylistic music like schnittke, berio, art ensemble of chicago, and others whose use of material seems to have motivations beyond just smug cleverness, but maybe that distinction is just rationalisation

I don’t believe in separating the artist from the art in general but in zappa’s case he goes out of his way to make even pretending to do so seem impossible

None of that sounds like a 'default setting' to me tbh.xp

oh you know what really reminds me of zappa despite not sounding much like him? the white album

The only other prominent/legit “counterculture” figure who comes immediately to mind who was satirizing hippies in the ‘60s is R. Crumb (I’m sure there were a few others?)

I actually don't detect much contempt at all in Ween, they've always come off as weirdly earnest to me

Yeah, always liked that aspect of the white album.

ween can be earnestly mean and misogynistic

true but I've never bought the idea that Ween was parody, I think they legitimately have reverence for a lot of music that their fans dismiss as lame

Well Ween were on Shimmy-Disc for their first few records and even toured with Kramer on bass (I have a memory of seeing this, could be mistaken). So there was that whole Bongwater/Eugene Chadbourne et al snarky irony thing they came up alongside, which was pure post-Zappa if nowhere near as fussily scored and arranged. Then again all those people did seem to genuinely like the music they were parodying, they just weren't able to express it outside of pretending they thought it was 'dumb'.

Or, like, Sonic Youth covering Madonna, that sort of thing. I think some of these avant sorts could be smug or arrogant, but I don't think many of them seethe with contempt the way Zappa does. Also, per Penman, he clearly craved some kind of mainstream success or recognition in a way that, say, Zorn et al. did/do not. Hence Zappa's obnoxious want-it-both-ways stance. I dare you to play/like this! Oh, you like this?That's because it was dumb on purpose, and you are dumb. This other stuff I'm doing is much better, but you'll never understand it. It's super sophisticated, which you'd recognize if you were smart enough to see beyond the unfunny fart and sex jokes I put in to throw you off the scent.

Like I said earlier, I suspect Zappa would be a lot more respected/palatable if his shit was all instrumental. Like, John Zorn might have titled a song "Jazz Snobs Eat Shit," but Zappa would have added literal minded "acting" and sound effects.

Jello Biafra is an interesting case. v post zappa in his sense of humour & satire but also Means It in a much more obvious way- once you get it you always know where he's coming from, and he wants you to get it, esp from mid 80s onwards - Frank doesn't make it so easy

also Chumbawamba, who cite Zappa as a major influence, but pointedly don't sneer at the people singing along to Tubthumping as a catchy drinking/empowerment anthem

in conclusion, post-zappadom is a land of contrasts

John Zorn has an absolutely massive record collection; he genuinely loves music. His collage-style compositions were created out of a love and appreciation for the various styles he incorporated. I get the feeling Zappa stopped listening to other people's music for pleasure (as opposed to figuring out what to make fun of about it) by about the age of 25.

Zappa just didn't have anything to say, and even then his targets were easy and obvious. I was curious, and indeed I found a rare instance of Zorn talking about Zappa. It sounds like there was a lot about Zappa Zorn appreciated, but he also comes to a different (backhanded) conclusion:

Zorn: "(...) You know, there’s a frame around a composition and there are things that belong in the frame and things that don’t. And it’s the bandleader-composer’s job to make sure that everything fits. But the most important thing is to keep that balance, where everything belongs but the players are injecting themselves into the work and doing their best. Duke Ellington was a perfect example of that."

JazzTimes: "And Frank Zappa."

Zorn: "Yes, though Zappa in the earlier years. Then it got a little different for him. He got more and more into control. For me, in his later years, his best record is Jazz From Hell, where it’s all done on a Synclavier."

JazzTimes: "Yeah, I think his comment at the time was, “At last, I’ve found my perfect band.”"

Zorn: "There you go! It’s him playing everything. Well, I don’t think that way. Because the lesson I learned from Zappa was that you treat your band members like royalty. You give them as much money as you can afford to give them on the road, the best situations in the hotels, treat them to meals, thank them for their work, appreciate their creativity and just thank your lucky stars that they’re in your band working with you.

Jello Biafra is an interesting case. v post zappa in his sense of humour & satire but also Means It in a much more obvious way- once you get it you always know where he's coming from, and he wants you to get it, esp from mid 80s onwards - Frank doesn't make it so easy

I think Jello's humor and satire is based in genuine political outrage and anger
I don't think Zappa really gives a shit that much
I guess free speech he did

Here’s another example of avant-ish guys tweaking an old favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XmWToCWybs

Zappa calling a record "Shiek Yurbouti" three years after "Shake Your Booty" kinda tells me a lot about how closely he kept up with things...would be like riffing off "Despacito" today

xp also, this, which my dad used to own (maybe still does): https://www.discogs.com/Various-Downtown-Does-The-Beatles-Live-At-The-Knitting-Factory-1992/release/1595466

"Conceptual comedy" where the concept is "you're stupid for laughing"? None for me, thanks.

That wasn't Kaufman's concept. He lived to make people laugh.

If anything he was constantly telling his audience that they were smart for laughing.

I didn't recall the Downtown Does the Beatles disc being particularly parodic? It has been a long time since I listened. I remember liking the King Missile track.

In what sense did Zappa not care about politics? Aside from being one of the main spokespeople against the PMRC at Congress, he set up voter registration desks at concerts, was a cultural attaché for Havel-era Czechoslovakia, included a section on politics in his autobiography, actually considered a Presidential bid iirc.