Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Sund4r please.

Guy covering up for his inability to act by speaking his cue cards in quotes doesn't strike me as Andy Kaufman level stuff, sorry. And stiff white dude making fun of disco dancing got old at some point, can't remember exactly when. He's not the greatest dancer himself, I wonder why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDwutKpVyas

Anyway, this thread did remind me to practise my rhythm changes today.

Anyway, sorry, can't give my full attention to this thread, boring myself to tears listening to another bunch of dire dudes running around the cycle of fifths with the ii-V-I's. Been done to death.

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu6s9t0iFSg

Zappa did approve of Little Deuce Coupe by the Beach Boys, because it uses a V-ii-I progression, thus confounding centuries of White Music.

Lol

One thing about that SNL clip, I forgot how thin and sharply angled he was, he’s like the inspiration for Waluigi

lol, he totally looks like Waluigi

maybe he's not the right hands?

Exactly, that was my point: he's not. If you think this kind of music is so shitty, Frank, but you're going to do it anyway, then why do it "bad" on purpose, as an obnoxious joke, and not do it better, because you are clearly a next level artist? Because you can't. So why bother with this fish in a barrel bullshit?

And yeah, if he were actually funny he could be forgiven for a lot of his bullshit, but Zappa is not funny.

For what it's worth, I find there's a strong correlation between "songs where Zappa is trying to be funny, and I agree it's funny" and "songs where Zappa is trying to be funny that I enjoy as music".

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🎃 🥸

I like a lot of Zappa but if it all disappeared I'd really only miss Peaches En Regalia and Trouble Every Day

In the end, it doesn't matter whether or not Zappa has the best musicians playing "Dancin' Fool," the question is if it's any better than "Disco Duck." And the answer is no.

This is the best Zappa, when he just sits down and watches Vinnie solo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ZUO79il6A

Unless you hate drum solos, in which case it is also bad.

B-b-but does Vinnie eat sushi during that solo?

lol I think he needs two hands for this solo. Sushi is just for the easy one-handed Zappa chart stuff.

It's not sushi, but here he is effortlessly breaking down a tricky Sting groove as he's playing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwmCeon6aPo

I like a lot of Zappa but if it all disappeared I'd really only miss Peaches En Regalia and Trouble Every Day

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, December 20, 2020 7:46 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

would add "village of the sun" to this

Village of the Sun has quite an affectionate lyric.

And I mean going rogue on a satirical live comedy show and satirizing its scripted nature is classic.

Funny that James Redd brought up Andy Kaufman, because this is what I thought of instantly. (And I fucking hate(d) Andy Kaufman's whole thing too. "Conceptual comedy" where the concept is "you're stupid for laughing"? None for me, thanks.)

I liked Andy Kaufman, maybe because I first saw him with Dick Van Dyke and because of the Elvis thing, but yeah.

Still, Kaufman (as much as I know of him) often seemed to relish the absurdity of it, of being on stage doing anything. There's never that queasy mix of self-regard and self-loathing that creeps all through Zappa's stuff.

I feel like there's a joy to Kaufman, things like the Mighty Mouse here I come to save the day sketch

This Kauffman talk is making me wish there was a vid of Orson Welles' rhapsodizing about "Dong Work For Yuda"

"...this Holy Fool, Bald-Headed John, simultaneously above and below his persecutors..."

There's also a feeling, at his most confrontational or novel, that Kaufman *is* subversive, whereas Zappa ultimately is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHpme0ZeHdU
Merry Christmas!

https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_day_andy_kaufman_mesmerized_dick_van_dyke_with_congas_and_tears

I must have seen him before Dick Van Dyke though, since I stayed up to watch the SNL premiere.

Dick Van Dyke gets it.

The way he would interrupt the show was similar to stuff that would often happen to guest stars on The Muppet Show.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/5/5b/Tonyclifton.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/300?cb=20200418211649

(That's my high concept joke, lol)

god, andy kaufman was so deeply funny and a consummate showman. lol at the idea that frank zappa's thing was even remotely similar -- just a creep who gets off on shitting on other people's enjoyment. zappa's resentment was so transparently a function of self-consciousness about his musical (and other) shortcomings -- and moreover he was so full of shit when he tried to talk about his "ideas" (musical, political, or otherwise) -- that it's embarrassing to witness. i just don't have any time for this guy anymore

I like a lot of Zappa but if it all disappeared I'd really only miss Peaches En Regalia and Trouble Every Day

I think "Any Way the Wind Blows" is the best thing he ever wrote.

budo jeru OTMFM. I’m not a massive Kaufman fan, but I never got even the slightest whiff of Zappa’s “everyone is stupid except me” smug horseshit from Andy’s work.

Does Zappa have any cultural cachet nowadays, other than as some kind of hippie-era relic? He was influencing people up until the 80s/90s (Weird Al, Ween, Primus, Mr Bungle, Butthole Surfers all show some level of similarity), but now? Maybe the whole post-modern/cut-up aesthetic can be traced back to him bringing the concepts into rock/pop music, but that's more like cultural osmosis.

I think he does, I get the feeling people are more open to complex and technical music than they were in the 80s and 90s, hence specific user imago and all his microtonal metal nonsense par example.

The Cardiacs, all that stuff.

Yeah I just think the snarky humour might have dated badly for The Kids. I'll ask my nephew! Mid-20s, Devin Townshend and Steven Wilson fan. His answer shall be taken as gospel.

Zappa absolutely influenced that other ILM nemesis, Ariel Pink.

I'm wondering what the Zappa haters think of bands like Jethro Tull and Devo, who were similarly criticized in contemporary reviews for being contemptuous of their audiences, parodying music that was (supposedly) superior to their own, and general self-satisfaction.

One difference is that Zappa-as-a-person and his public statements loom larger than things that Ian Anderson or Devo said in some interview.

Don't see much of a comparison there, tbh

I think someone who experienced Zappa during the first flush, 1967 to 1971 or thereabouts should weigh in re: the following… it seems he was if not the first but surely among the first and certainly the most prominent figure to proclaim "everything sucks, everyone is corrupt, the mainstream is corny, and even the so called underground is charlatn-y bullshit." this must have been bracing and revelatory in the years I mentioned above, but I and likely most of the people on this thread never knew a time when such a critique was not very nearly a default setting, and thus not particularly revolutionary, bold, etc…

(xp) A lot of early Devo definitely has a similar kind of aggressive nerd vibe as Zappa, it's also very misogynistic.

What's a venn diagram like of people impressed by Zappa contrarian politics/musicianship and people impressed by George Carlin's contrarian politics/comedy?

Did Jethro Tull ever engage in parody? I've always thought of them as v earnest.

I've never thought of Ian Anderson as earnest, didn't Jethro Tull do all sorts of 'comedy' stuff in their live shows?